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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 8:44 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
maiden77 wrote:
This is what it should already be like, for EDH and casual at the very least.
Honestly, why do you care what kind of cardboard anyone else has? Casual is the LAST place proxies should be an issue. I don't mean you should be forced to play against them, but let people who want to play that way against each other alone.

Now WotC protecting their IP at tournaments, absolutely 100% agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 10:04 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
MRHblue wrote:
Casual is the LAST place proxies should be an issue. I don't mean you should be forced to play against them, but let people who want to play that way against each other alone.

This is a collectible card game. Some people believe the 'collectible' part means that the game is played exclusively with cards printed by Wizards. In fact it's relatively easy to find players who exclusively define themselves as 'casual' and will refuse to play against proxied cards.

That proxies are considered a part of the social contract is completely unsurprising.

kirkusjones wrote:
Here's the email that was posted on The Source
[...]
• Magic events (sanctioned and unsanctioned) can only allow genuine Magic: The Gathering cards.

I think the proper thing to bold is the word events. Things like casual play between rounds or playtesting are not events. Events are put on by the store, have the blessing of the store, and therefore have the tacit blessing of Wizards/WPN. At least that's my interpretation of this.

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Last edited by tarnar on 2016-Jan-15 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 11:00 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Buthrakaur wrote:
It is not actually hard to keep track of things like that if it is important to you. If you are blown away by someone having the simple respect to the game and to other players to do what Maiden does, I feel sad for the environment you play in.

I get "blown away" every time someone gets offended when told to not play with proxies. The entitlement that is required to have that reaction is absolutely disturbing.

We may have different thresholds for 'hard work'. I'm not really into writing down where all my cards are, and trying to put them back, or annotate that they are in a new location.
Guess Maiden and i probably play in different amounts, or have different amounts of shared cards, plus it is obviously important to him to never use a placeholder. But that is a lot more work than i want to do; pulling out probably several decks, getting a notebook/ledger to notate where each card is now, possibly returning everything to a preset configuration. Between making people wait for this (especially if trying to play quick games) and the difference in wear in all my decks, i don't even see this as reasonable, much less 'not hard work'.

Also different ideas of respect, since i don't think it's disrespectful to the game to play proxies. (especially when you actually own the card, especially when you make them really well, especially if you have the copies but use proxies as a means to play alternate arts)

Honestly, on the topic of respect - is it really right to make others wait while you dig through decks and such? Seems like it's either disrespectful/frustrating, or that it's ok because the other players say 'hey go ahead'. If the first, you're an ass. If the second, how is it an issue to ask 'mind if i use proxies? i'm a broke ass/i build too many decks' or 'mind if i use placeholders? i own these cards'?

I'm probably going to mostly ignore your comment about my environment, since i'm almost 100% sure you have actually gleaned all of nothing about it from my post. This post is about me.
But for whatever it's worth to you (or anyone i guess), i have not encountered anyone who said they had a problem with my proxies. But part of that may be that they look pretty nice, part may be that i actually own the cards and no one wants to wait for me to dig, part may be people just trying to be polite, part may be that i'm using them for alternate art purposes, and then some part people just don't care. I actually asked a couple weeks with a group if i could use proxies and everyone said 'yea sure' except one guy asked 'do you own real copies'.

I can't imagine, though, that you believe it's disrespectful to other players if you are given consent. In no way did i ever say it's ok to force that onto other people, so i'm not sure where you're coming from there. I definitely don't think one person should bully the rest of the group into follow his rules on proxies, or her rules on house bans and what not.

tarnar wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Casual is the LAST place proxies should be an issue.

This is a collectible card game. Some people believe the 'collectible' part means that the game is played exclusively with cards printed by Wizards.

Well, i don't think he is trying to say "should never ever be a problem in any way". I think 'last' is pretty appropriate.

But your paragraph as an answer to the rest of his statement is pretty spot on. Another reason being that some people may proxy cards they will never afford, and the people who own those cards probably earned them by some definition. I used to be that group for a little while.


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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 11:46 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Disappointed in what this means for some 10-proxy Vintage events or even some low-proxy Legacy events, sadness.

In EDH I prefer no proxies, or proxies if you can produce the real card (for example, a Timetwister or Bazaar of Baghdad if you don't want to damage it in play) or proxies if you are getting the card in the mail soon (i.e. my Ensnaring Bridges for my Lantern deck, which arrived today). A few proxies are fine otherwise, but showing up with the 30-50 card proxy EDH deck will get you offered another person's EDH deck or whatever so you can play.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 11:53 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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Location: New Hampshire
tarnar wrote:
I think the proper thing to bold is the word events. Things like casual play between rounds or playtesting are not events. Events are put on by the store, have the blessing of the store, and therefore have the tacit blessing of Wizards/WPN. At least that's my interpretation of this.

I agree 100%. I think anyone who really thinks WotC is trying to police their casual games needs to go buy a roll of tinfoil and make a hat right away.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 12:22 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well, it's probably not to police the guys in the corner minding their own business, but it's not totally crazy what i said about the growing number of fakes and potential impact of sales. I mean it is safer to just ban all that behavior.

I am guessing that in either case this is not really going to affect casual play, since the store owner will not be hovering over people like a lunatic >.>


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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 12:34 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-19 12:15 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
MRHblue wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
This is what it should already be like, for EDH and casual at the very least.
Honestly, why do you care what kind of cardboard anyone else has? Casual is the LAST place proxies should be an issue. I don't mean you should be forced to play against them, but let people who want to play that way against each other alone.

Now WotC protecting their IP at tournaments, absolutely 100% agree.

I didn't care until I played against someone who proxied a Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal. There are so many cards to choose from in EDH that people don't need to proxy the best cards. And since it's casual, there's no reason to proxy.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 12:54 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
tarnar wrote:
I think the proper thing to bold is the word events. Things like casual play between rounds or playtesting are not events. Events are put on by the store, have the blessing of the store, and therefore have the tacit blessing of Wizards/WPN. At least that's my interpretation of this.

I agree 100%. I think anyone who really thinks WotC is trying to police their casual games needs to go buy a roll of tinfoil and make a hat right away.


I HAVE THE DOCUMENTS! WIZARDS IS WATCHING US ALL WITH BLACK ORNITHOPTERS! HOMELANDS WAS AN INSIDE JOB!

EDIT: I actually have the documents: http://i.imgur.com/HXg0zap.png

And yes, events is the better word to bold. Less of a slap in the face to us and more to our Vintage and Legacy brethren.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 6:46 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Celerus wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
This is what it should already be like, for EDH and casual at the very least.
Honestly, why do you care what kind of cardboard anyone else has? Casual is the LAST place proxies should be an issue. I don't mean you should be forced to play against them, but let people who want to play that way against each other alone.

Now WotC protecting their IP at tournaments, absolutely 100% agree.

I didn't care until I played against someone who proxied a Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal. There are so many cards to choose from in EDH that people don't need to proxy the best cards. And since it's casual, there's no reason to proxy.


This

I worked damned hard to build my collection for the past 12 years and i don't proxy. I absolutely think that if put the effort in, everyone else should. If your meta allows proxies great, but that takes away from the game, you are hurting it. Buy the cards, trade for them or use something else. Otherwise you aren't playing MTG. Just because it's casual doesn't mean you can use anything you like. Casual by far makes up the largest portion of play for MTG and shouldn't be shrugged off so easily. I went through my feelings in the Proxy thread so i will leave it there. Play with real MTG cards or find alternatives. Simple

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-12 7:00 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Buthrakaur wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
maiden77 wrote:
The one copy thing is a lazy excuse. I have a EDH cube and around 15 EDH decks as well as 4 Tiny Leaders decks and 2 Modern. These can and do share cards, especially the TL and modern ones. Solution is to keep the decks that share cards in the same sleeves. It takes minutes to transfer the whole thing across, job done. Unless you are playing all the decks at once, 'only having one copy' is not a valid excuse really.


Seriously? You spend doing that? Don't you need a lot of bookkeeping to list which cards are shared from where? And then trying to play cube do you just have to draw from like 8 decks at once? And then afterwards do you try to put them back? This sounds retarded.

I have like 10 decks, all kept in a briefcase, all in double sleeved KMC black Hyper Mats, and and it would still take a ton of time and bookkeeping. I seriously am blown away right now, that anyone would search through 100, 200, 300, or 700 cards to find a few copies of something they use in multiple places.

Add onto that the difference in wear on sleeves and holy shit.


It is not actually hard to keep track of things like that if it is important to you. If you are blown away by someone having the simple respect to the game and to other players to do what Maiden does, I feel sad for the environment you play in.

I get "blown away" every time someone gets offended when told to not play with proxies. The entitlement that is required to have that reaction is absolutely disturbing.


Summed up my answer here really. My cube takes at least an hour to set up, but when my friends come round once per month and we cube for 12 hours or so (with a few hours D&D in between) its a true event. I have to build the packs up, ensure that all the cards in the cube are present (theres only realistically ever maybe 30 cards i have taken out) and then make sure all the colours are more or less evenly distributed in each pack. The cards i share between decks are the obvious ones really, original duals, Zen fetches maybe, or shock lands. Karn, Ugin, maybe a wurmcoil. Taking note of the cards i take out makes it easy to find them after. And i know which decks they are in so it probably takes a few minutes to get them back. The wear on the sleeves in basically non-existent, all are double sleeved Ultra Pro light blue, and the tiny leaders games are only usually a handful. I actually resleeve for Modern and Tiny Leaders, because its only a few cards. Plus its only usually a few decks that cards are shared. Why would anybody have 8 half built decks that need to share cards? Just concentrate on a handful. Besides if i have borrowed cards from the cube i gradually rebuy them for the decks so the cube can remain untouched permanently and the deck can be fully built too.

The effort is minimal, i am amazed at the lack of effort some people will put in, or the lack of respect shown to the game and other players if they cannot be bothered to do some minor resleeving prior to an event.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-13 12:21 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Maiden, where do you run these twelve hour cube extravaganzas? At your home or at a shop? It's admirable that you put so much time and effort to craft an experience for your playgroup, so a change like this won't affect you. As I said before, this will hit vintage and legacy players more, as the barrier to entry for them into those formats is much higher and they aren't afforded the same leeway with card choices as we are.

Regardless of who is most impacted, I feel like such rhetoric from Wizards is harmful to the eternal (of which we are a part) community as a whole. The onus is now on store owners to police their players, and it's not much of a stretch for a shop to ban any kind of proxies on premises altogether to avoid any risk to their WPN status. I know I have used proxies to test new cards in my decks, and that testing helps decide if I'll be picking up said card from the shop or not. I don't have a regular group like yours, so my testing ground is at the LGS. It is unclear as well if this applies to collectors/international editions and gold bordered cards as well, which tend to make appearances from time to time. Hell, some shops I've been to even have gold bordered cards in the case expressly to sell to EDH players as budget options.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-13 1:17 am 
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kirkusjones wrote:
The onus is now on store owners to police their players, and it's not much of a stretch for a shop to ban any kind of proxies on premises altogether to avoid any risk to their WPN status. I know I have used proxies to test new cards in my decks, and that testing helps decide if I'll be picking up said card from the shop or not.
This is not going to happen. As said before, the proxy ban only applies to shop-run tournaments. Using proxies for deck testing is a longstanding tradition in Magic, and doesn't threaten the integrity of tournaments. Our store even had a collection of fully-proxied decks of all the top-tier decks one year so people could test their decks against them before a regional tournament. The Store Liaison at Wizards thought it was a great idea.

Simply put, Wizards doesn't care about proxies so long as they're not interfering with their sales or their tournaments. Proxy playtesting doesn't subtract from either one, but rather is more likely to strengthen both by making people more confident in their decks. OTOH, from their point of view, allowing Legacy/Vintage proxy tournaments can subtract from the tournament scene overall, and can cause confusion since you'd expect a WPN store's Magic events to be, y'know, WPN events.

kirkusjones wrote:
It is unclear as well if this applies to collectors/international editions and gold bordered cards as well, which tend to make appearances from time to time. Hell, some shops I've been to even have gold bordered cards in the case expressly to sell to EDH players as budget options.
It isn't unclear at all, as Wizards has always maintained that gold-bordered cards are real Magic cards. (They're just real magic cards that aren't tournament legal.)

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-13 1:30 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kirkusjones wrote:
As I said before, this will hit vintage and legacy players more, as the barrier to entry for them into those formats is much higher and they aren't afforded the same leeway with card choices as we are.
This doesn't seem like an actual problem to me. Some random shops are going to stop running their annual 20-proxy vintage tournament that 6 people show up to play, and 3 of those people are going to be sad about it because the guys with 20 proxies don't actually care about playing the format.

The biggest recurring Legacy tournament in my community is a player-run event held at a bowling alley. The shops already only run Standard, Modern, and Limited with any frequency.

By far the largest Vintage and Legacy events are the Legacy GPs, Eternal Weekend, BoM, and the SCG circuit. All of these events already disallow proxies. No proxy event even holds a candle to them. So the reality is that this ruling won't impact events and will only impact communities if there is no player willing to put the minimal effort into setting up an event outside of a WPN location to replace the already-rare proxy events they feel like they are losing.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-13 1:40 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
kirkusjones wrote:
Maiden, where do you run these twelve hour cube extravaganzas? At your home or at a shop? It's admirable that you put so much time and effort to craft an experience for your playgroup, so a change like this won't affect you. As I said before, this will hit vintage and legacy players more, as the barrier to entry for them into those formats is much higher and they aren't afforded the same leeway with card choices as we are.

Regardless of who is most impacted, I feel like such rhetoric from Wizards is harmful to the eternal (of which we are a part) community as a whole. The onus is now on store owners to police their players, and it's not much of a stretch for a shop to ban any kind of proxies on premises altogether to avoid any risk to their WPN status. I know I have used proxies to test new cards in my decks, and that testing helps decide if I'll be picking up said card from the shop or not. I don't have a regular group like yours, so my testing ground is at the LGS. It is unclear as well if this applies to collectors/international editions and gold bordered cards as well, which tend to make appearances from time to time. Hell, some shops I've been to even have gold bordered cards in the case expressly to sell to EDH players as budget options.


At my house mate, usually 4-6 of us for the cube all been playing since Ravnica apart from my little bros who are new to the scene. When i play at store its usually modern or Tiny Leaders but the UK is pretty different to the US so i don't know if the proxy thing is prevalent here in the UK or not.

I agree this hits Legacy and Vintage the worst, especially vintage. It could be a pain for stores to back up this, will they have to check every card in every deck? How could they even spend the time doing so? I think that proxies for necessity in a competitive format when it was allowed in certain number is fine, its in the rules (or was). But in any other format, where its disallowed (as the barrier to entry, card availability/choice/price is much lower) like EDH, proxies shouldn't even be thought of. They just aren't necessary. If you want to proxy a deck to test against friends fair enough, but don't rock up games for months with it. Proxying one card 'just to try' is annoying too, trade for it or buy it or don't play it. Its a trading card game. If you don't have the card you can't play it. I don't own a Ferrari, so i can't drive it to work (or i could once then go to jail). Gold bordered cards are a judgment call, they are real cards, and still rather expensive, but still are not strictly legal. I wouldn't mind one or maybe 2. But again, loading up decks with them just feels like a con to me who has built up the real ones to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Wizards Cracking Down on Proxies at any WPN-Affiliated Shops
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-13 1:52 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
maiden77 wrote:
I agree this hits Legacy and Vintage the worst, especially vintage. It could be a pain for stores to back up this, will they have to check every card in every deck? How could they even spend the time doing so?
I have no idea why this argument keeps popping up. Do your shops go through all the standard decks checking for proxies? No, because with proxies banned in tournaments, you don't see any. And if a player does see a proxy in their opponent's deck, they're going to immediately call a judge.

If anything, this will make things easier for shops, not harder. With all proxies banned, nothing has to be checked. However, if there's a 9-proxy tournament you have to make sure that only nine cards are actually proxied in any deck.

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My Decks: Zombiepocalypse (Thraximundar) ♦ Thrun stands alone (voltron) ♦ Ashling the Burninator ♦ Doran beatdown (treefolk/plant tribal) ♦ Mine! (UB theft/clone) ♦ Vampire Beatdown (Edgar Markov) ♦ BW Enchantments (Daxos the Returned)


Last edited by Willbender on 2016-Jan-13 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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