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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-07 5:42 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
thaumaturge wrote:
I accidentally posted Zendikar Resurgent in the Grixmas thread. My comments were basically that this is probably going to replace Mirari's Wake as my #1 most-common target for Academy Rector in those decks that can run them, but I don't see it flat out replacing Wake. That extra two mana is a pretty big deal for some decks.

Obviously, my Karametra deck is absolutely going to want this, and because it's a pretty great Cascade target, Maelstrom Wanderer will also want one. Beyond that, I just have to look at which decks have access to Academy Rector and Green cards. If I'm already Rector-ing for Wake odds are pretty good that I'd rather be Rectoring for this instead.

But if hardcasting this is my ONLY means of getting it into play, I'm probably going to be hard-pressed to justify this. Tapping 7 for an echantment and then, most likely, having to wait a full turn cycle hoping it survives before I get any benefit is pretty iffy.


Do you ever play mana reflection? at one mana more this is worth it for the card draw and is basically the same, waiting for a full turn cycle wise, and also fits into way more decks than the wake. I hear your misgivings though, i tend to try boundless realms or something instead. At least the lands stick around, nothing worse than dropping a 6-7 drop and it getting nuked before you untap lol

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-07 7:44 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
maiden77 wrote:
Do you ever play mana reflection? at one mana more this is worth it for the card draw and is basically the same, waiting for a full turn cycle wise, and also fits into way more decks than the wake. I hear your misgivings though, i tend to try boundless realms or something instead. At least the lands stick around, nothing worse than dropping a 6-7 drop and it getting nuked before you untap lol
The only deck I've played Mana Reflection in, where I actually liked it enough not to cut it, was Maelstrom Wanderer. It's also one of those cards I happen to only own one of, and so it gets passed around a bit but always winds up back in the deck where it's done the most work.

Wake is just one of those cards I will always play, if I can, no matter what, because it's a pet card (depsite being an obvious staple... I know how it sounds to call widely played staple a "pet card", but seriously I will play it in EVERYTHING even if it doesn't actually make sense... but then again, it always DOES make sense, somehow).

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-07 7:57 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
maiden77 wrote:
Do you ever play mana reflection? at one mana more this is worth it for the card draw and is basically the same, waiting for a full turn cycle wise, and also fits into way more decks than the wake. I hear your misgivings though, i tend to try boundless realms or something instead. At least the lands stick around, nothing worse than dropping a 6-7 drop and it getting nuked before you untap lol

Much as I like the card, I don't know about "basically the same". Mana Reflection lets your Lake of the Dead tap for 8 black, lets your Grim Monolith go Infinite off itself, and makes cards like Nykthos and Cabal Coffers freaking explode. I think Mirari's Wake is a much more comparable card, where it trades reduced cost and an anthem for a slimmer color identity and some incidental draw. Again, I like the card and think it's quite strong, but nowhere near the power level of Mana Reflection.

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-07 8:00 am 
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That doesn't sound weird at all... I suppose there are simply a lot of people who see it as their pet card.

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-07 6:44 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Wow i never looked at it like Zirilan, nice call! Reflection is more powerful than i gave it credit for. To be honest, i'm in the same seat as Thaumaturge with it, i have only ever got it doing work in my Rith token deck that needs crap loads of mana, and will cantrip from my casting of it so if it gets eaten, at least i have drawn stuff from it. Or there are so many threatening enchantments that no target is the correct one. I like this new one but it will be very win more for me, and maybe most people at 7 mana. Also, it certainly isn't weird mate. One of my pet cards before EDH was a thing (or at least before i knew it was around 8-9 years ago) was mind's eye. I jammed it in my 5 colour 60 card dragon deck and never looked back. I am glad i picked up 4 before inflation hit them. I also got a load of reliquary towers when they were like 80p each years ago after the first print as i loved having it whenever i could. Obviously now i don't jam it everywhere. But i used too! haha

Loving some of the new stuff, it's very narrow though imo. Which is great for EDH. Like Origins, had loads of saucy powerful cards. But only for the right decks/strategies. This set seems to have lots for eldrazi or colourless decks (duh) and lots for lands decks. Lands decks i think are plenty viable now with the man lands and awaken etc. I personally have genju of the realm at the helm that can easily switch for horde of notions. Not changed the deck with the new cards yet though, waiting for the full spoiler, hoping for a full cycle of embodiment's. They are SICK!

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 2:07 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Everblight wrote:
Image


That thing's nuts. The only problem is it's so expensive you hardly need the mana and might have to rely on topdecks for the draw. I could use one for Ezuri(Old) anyways.


I was looking for a way to elfball in EDH. now I am one card closer


Ezuri, Priest of Titaniam Llanowar Elves and Devoted Druid and Heritage Druid.
Tap Priest for 5, Pump Ezuri, Tap Heritage for G, counter (0/4) Untap, Tap Heritage for G, Untap (0/3), Untap, repeat until 1 power, tap Devoted, Heritage and Llanowar for GGG (6 in pool), pump Ezuri. Can add Umbral Mantle if you want as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 2:20 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
CrazyPierre wrote:
Ezuri, Priest of Titaniam Llanowar Elves and Devoted Druid and Heritage Druid.
Tap Priest for 5, Pump Ezuri, Tap Heritage for G, counter (0/4) Untap, Tap Heritage for G, Untap (0/3), Untap, repeat until 1 power, tap Devoted, Heritage and Llanowar for GGG (6 in pool), pump Ezuri. Can add Umbral Mantle if you want as well.


Yeah, Ezuri mana dorks is gross that way. Thinking about it, I could probably run one in Selvala Enchantress as a direct replacement for Primordial Sage too.

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 2:42 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
CrazyPierre wrote:
Ezuri, Priest of Titaniam Llanowar Elves and Devoted Druid and Heritage Druid.
Tap Priest for 5, Pump Ezuri, Tap Heritage for G, counter (0/4) Untap, Tap Heritage for G, Untap (0/3), Untap, repeat until 1 power, tap Devoted, Heritage and Llanowar for GGG (6 in pool), pump Ezuri. Can add Umbral Mantle if you want as well.

And then? If you don't have the Umbral Mantle (which already gives you infinite {G} with Priest of Titania with 4+ elves on the board), you end up with a large Ezuri to swing with and then your Devoted Druid dies at EOT.


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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 3:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Full spoiler is up. I'm really impressed with this set as a whole. They're adding a lot of off color support to Zada in standard so she may become a thing. Captain's Claw basically makes allies viable by itself yet they spoiled the mediocre coat of arms for one armor instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 3:45 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Just looking at the spoiler overall, I am really not hyped at all about this set. I dislike the whole colorless <> thing and very few of the cards in that area appeal to me in the slightest. Most of the other keywords are boring. Surge and Support really don't excite me much, though I will admit that support is pretty relevant to my current interests - I have an Anafenza the Foremost deck that badly needs some.. well, support... so I'm hoping a few of those Support cards will find a home there. I mean, I like putting +1/+1 counters on things, and I like getting my spells at cheaper costs, but the specific cards and the overall execution of these mechanics largely leaves me cold.

There are certainly individual cards I do want to play and a few I'm downright excited about, of course, so I'm not saying Oath is devoid (see what I did there) of anything of value. But on paper, at least, I think it largely blows. However, I was very cool towards BFZ at this point in spoiler season, and while I still thing that was a largely underwhelming set, the handful of cards from BFZ that I am playing today have almost all been surprisingly solid - even stuff like Emeria Shepherd, which I KNEW was going to be a huge bomb, has far exceeded my already-lofty expectations, and Hedron Archive, so deceptively simple, has been downright wonderful in a number of decks.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I pretty much hated BFZ until I played around with some of the cards, but now I MOSTLY still hate it, but the good parts are way better than I gave it credit for initially. Something tells me Oath will not manage to surprise me the way some aspects of BFZ did, but I am trying to keep my mind open to the possibility.

Perhaps if I take stock of which cards I would actually play in specific decks I might find there's more to like than I realize...

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 4:47 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I like Kozi's brood far more than the stuff from Ulamog in BFZ. Both sets' Eldrazi were better than the nightmare that is annihilator though. I can see how you might not like the set if you completely overlook the strongest aspects of it.

I see a ton of playable devoid/colorless cards. They really pushed the power level of colorless mana requirements. The oath's are great. The Chandra is a bit pricey but actually powerful compared to most other versions of her. A "you win the game" card that's both viable and interesting. Nearly every legend in the set is actually interesting without being forced or too single minded. Linvala is a bit disappointing and Tazri is really only playble because she's a 5C ally but otherwise they're all fairly good. Quite a few EDH playable uncommons and even a couple commons. There's even a bunch of Modern/Legacy playable cards in the set. What more is really necessary to be a "successful" set?


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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 6:39 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
I like Kozi's brood far more than the stuff from Ulamog in BFZ. Both sets' Eldrazi were better than the nightmare that is annihilator though. I can see how you might not like the set if you completely overlook the strongest aspects of it.

I see a ton of playable devoid/colorless cards. They really pushed the power level of colorless mana requirements. The oath's are great. The Chandra is a bit pricey but actually powerful compared to most other versions of her. A "you win the game" card that's both viable and interesting. Nearly every legend in the set is actually interesting without being forced or too single minded. Linvala is a bit disappointing and Tazri is really only playble because she's a 5C ally but otherwise they're all fairly good. Quite a few EDH playable uncommons and even a couple commons. There's even a bunch of Modern/Legacy playable cards in the set. What more is really necessary to be a "successful" set?

Well I feel like I shoud point out that, right now, the ONLY format I play at all is EDH. So my evaluation of the set is based entirely in that context. I currently have about 16 EDH deck sleeved up and even with that many decks there really aren't that many cards I'm interested in.

I am really excited to build around Ayli, and I think Kalitas will be a solid addition to the 99 of a couple of decks, but otherwise I don't like any of the new Legends. I have a buddy with a 5-color Ally deck, though, so for his sake I was pretty excited to see Tazri, but it's a card I'm fairly certain I will never cast at any point in my life.

I'd be interested to know what you see as playable from the common/uncommon portion of the set, because almost anything I see that I WOULD consider playable, it turns out there are just better cards already available.

Based on the decks I have now - PLUS those I don't have sleeved up but consider to be permanent fixtures in my stable so I still watch out for new cards for them - I can only find about 10 to 12 cards I am even 90% sure I'll be putting into a deck at some point, and of those only about 4 that I'm actaully excited about or consider slam-dunks.

But, for what it's worth, as much as I am largely disinterested in this whole block's new take on Eldrazi I am still glad they didn't do Annihilator. Because passive disinterest is still a big improvement on active dislike. I wouldn't mind playing against any of the new Eldrazi except Kozliek. Even Newlamog is largely inoffensive to me, comparitively speaking.

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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 7:20 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
PredatoryAmoeba wrote:
Viperion wrote:
MaRo's Social Media spoiler:
Image

I quite like this guy as an edh toy. A colorless way to deal with cards in hand is a happy thing for green, and it has a small political toy in "be nice to me and you'll get a card."
Note that they both say "target opponent". Doesn't have to be the same opponent ;)

And 'leaves', not 'die.


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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 8:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
thaumaturge wrote:
I'd be interested to know what you see as playable from the common/uncommon portion of the set, because almost anything I see that I WOULD consider playable, it turns out there are just better cards already available.


The colorless instants are strong enough to see play in off colors. Warping Wail is especially potent. There aren't many other options on those for obvious reasons.

Make a Stand is a per deck choice compared to Rootborn Defenses. There's always Boros Charm as a better option but you're not always in red.

Slip Through Space cantrips while most those effects do not. It also adds a second one drop cantrip that will go nuts with Zada in standard.

Void Shatter is entirely playable and the non-blue status will get it around some red counterspells if they see play in your meta. They do in mine. Three mana counters that don't go to the yard are some of the most widely played counters due to the amount of yard abuse in this format. There aren't better options but there are enough similar options that it will be a meta/deck choice.

Sweep Away tops attackers in blue which is nice. MOST similar effects cost 4 and/or sorcery speed.

Unity of Purpose is another "combo" for Zada off color or just a solid combo/combat trick for simic. Easily goes infinite with a "tap to copy" creature and a mana dork (and it puts the counter on both of them for you).

Corpse Churn would be good in decks like Sidisi or Meren as it's untargeted return to hand so there are no "in response exile" tricks to be played on your specific target and it doesn't automatically whiff if they exile your whole yard in response. The instant speed, lack of target and mill all in one makes it super playable.

Devour in Flames lets you reuse landfall/CITP effects in red while being solid creature/walker removal. Everyone always points out that burn can't kill a 6/6 or bigger but EVERY 2015 commander legend dies to this. EVERY origins, and non-eldrazi legend from BFZ dies to this. Prophet of Kruphix and just about every other actual threat that you want to single target remove dies to this. The only downside is sorcery speed which may nudge it out of most lists. It will still see play in Mina and Denn or Omnath decks though.

Expedite is a functional reprint of Crimson Wisps which will go right into my Zada deck...

Kazuul's Toll Collector can be equipped by anything for free. Not just as a CITP effect. Entirely valuable in an equipment deck. No better option in red and doesn't require metalcraft in general.

Bonds of Mortality is just nuts. There are other (not better) options for losing hexproof but there are no other options for losing indestructible repeatably for G.

Nissa's Judgement is a kill spell for green in any counters matters deck without risking losing creatures to fight damage. Five mana is a little high but you're not leaving them a 3/3 or trading in a fight.

Cliffhaven Vampire is straight up amazing for the color pair.

Reflector Mage is a mana-o-war with upside. Very strong.

Storm Chaser is excellent. May not be huge in EDH because of better izzet options but it still may see some play because of the evasion, haste and cheap cost.

Seer's Lantern - I have a friend swooning over this card. I don't agree with him but it will for sure see play at least in my meta. (not by me)

Crumbling Vestige is just a cool land IMO. It has synergy with Amulet builds but otherwise fixes your mana the turn it comes in and then provides a colorless source moving forward which will be relevant if you're playing any of the colorless specific cards.

Wastes obviously.


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 Post subject: Re: Oath of the Gatewatch -- The Colorless Basic Land is Here!
AgePosted: 2016-Jan-08 9:10 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sweet, thanks for the detailed reply, Epsilon.

I agree with a lot of your assessments, but I still don't see myself using most of the cards you listed for various reasons, but I admit I would consider most of them to be playable, in a vacuum. If I had different decks, a different playstyle or different social contract considerations most of those cards you mention, I could see using.

For instance, any countermagic is basically dead to me for various reasons, though just as a "Counter your Sweeper" option, Warping Wail does have some appeal.

I do like Make A Stand just for, again, saving me from being blown out by sweepers, but as you say, depending on the deck, Boros Charm or other similar spells are probably better - if I have this, I'm almost always saving it to respond to a Wrath, so the +1/+1 is all but worthless - in fact if I'm in White and I want this effect but can't get Boros Charm I'm pretty certain I'm taking Faith's Reward over this 95% of the time.

Sweep Away - Here's one where I would concede that it's playable, but I have had just SO much success with Aetherize at 4 that getting a 1 mana discount to stop only one attacker seems horrible to me. Especially since the only deck in my meta that typically swings with just one large creatures is Uril and this does nothing against Uril... I also have not had any trouble casting Aetherspout at 5 mana...

I TOTALLY misread Corpse Churn, though. THAT is a common I am pretty excited about. I have a Sidisi deck and a Meren deck. It's for sure going into Sidisi, and maybe Meren. Thanks!

Devour in Flames is okay, I guess, but I've been running Roast and that has been only a so-so reliable card for killing the thing that needs most killed. If I was more worried about opposing 'walkers I might like this more, but that isn't a pressing concern for me at the moment. I really don't want to pay 1 more mana AND bounce a land to Roast, but the landfall interaction is cute, I'll grant you...

Toll Collector is cute, but it just isn't near good enough to make the cut in my Equipment-focused deck. If it had Doublestrike and was a 1/2 or 2/2, it'd be a different story.

Reflector Mage is friggin' sweet, I'll cop to that. I just don't have any decks with U and W in their CI except Narset, at the moment, and she definitely doesn't want more creatures! If I still had Derevi together, it'd definitely be played there.

And because I'm out of time, I'll just say I think Seer's Lantern is a huge, steaming pile of crap. If it cost 2 to cast and only 1 to Scry I'd play it in, oh, probably 2 or 3 decks for sure and MAYBE one or two more, IF I could fit it in, but as printed there are just about infinite better things. Shame.

Anyway, you have proven your point, in that I was too quick to dismiss many of the common and uncommons. I certainly regret overlooking Corpse Churn in particular. But ultimately this set is still going to have far less impact on my existing decks than most sets do, and that's the main criteria by which I judge a set these days - how many cards from it am I actually going to play? In this set's case that number is very likely to come in way below the average. Still better than Dragon's Maze, though.

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