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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-09 6:13 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jul-06 5:58 pm
Age: Wyvern
I don't understand why there is so much hate going towards these decks. They are meant to be entry level decks for new players, and give some love for current players of Commander. And while I do agree that they could have done some more bigger or splashier repents, I was surprised by some of the reprint choices and glad they were included as I expected some of the card power levels to be a bit lower than what we got. For example: just getting clusestones, and no signets.

I didn't think they would ever put Phyrexian Arena, Lightning Greaves, Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, etc... in just because they seemed "too powerful" for an entry level product.

Unlike past years where I was extremely exited about the decks and wanted to keep some together and upgrade. I don't see that happening this year. That may change once I play with them though.

And even though I believe they could have done better job on some of the card selections, I do like the direction they are moving with the decks and the willingness to include more staples/sought after cards. And l am exited to see how much more willing to put more staples even if they are all less than $10-$15 cards next year. But I think they should be willing to put in a few higher priced, more sought after cards.

I don't need a "True-name nemesis" type card for the set to be a winner in my book.

IMO- I think they did a good job with these decks, could have been a little better, could have been a lot worse. I will be getting one or two decks. I can't wait to play with these and get my hands on some new/reprinted cards for my 15 current decks! And maybe if Térastodon was banned, they will stop reprinting it! Enough already with this card!!

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-09 6:58 pm 
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Age: Dragon
-Ask why people hate the decks
-Lists several reasons why he dislikes them.

Makes sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-09 8:04 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Jelik wrote:
RW- this deck looks really fun to play and the themes of giants and angels is great. Cool reprints and some neat new cards. It's interesting that there is a new exile all enchantments/artifacts in the deck that has the most though...


Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas is a tank, we'll be seeing a lot more RW decks about because of her. No, she's not particularly exciting but she's very efficient.

Not too sure about Anya, Merciless Angel. She has the advantage of being a cheaper commander solution for RW Angels and she does have the "keep low hanging fruit alive" tension that could be interesting.

Jelik wrote:
BW- the 2 new commanders have great build around potential. The new O-ring is cool. Some alright reprints I would be happy to see if I didn't have them.


I love both these guys. Having an "army in a can" Commander that benefits you for doing what you want to do anyway (play cool enchantments) is great. Again, we're not re-inventing the wheel here but it does show you that R&D can make an excellent, thematic Commander who is the right side of the power line that can be absurd without ever going into broken.Daxos the Returned will be a frustrating guy to play against as the enchantment theme isn't the most agressive so i can see games against Daxos descending into huge slogfests.

Karlov of the Ghost Council, a BW Soul Sisters commander that pumps & exiles at 2 mana? Again lifegain isn't breaking the color wheel in BW, no surprises here, but they have taken a simple mechanic available to both colors and made it into a guy you want to build a different deck around.

Two thumbs up for BW.

Jelik wrote:
BG- the best commander of the bunch. It could creep up to ghost chieftain like shenanigans.


I'm quite surprised at the love for Meren of Clan Nel Toth. I'm sure you could tick her experience up quickly enough but I find her end of turn trigger annoying. It's yet another GB recursion engine. About 2 years ago or more, I'd have been all over this but I've grown weary of GB being straight graveyard recursion. That said, I'm not sure I personally could design a better/unique GB legend. She's not exciting but at least you have to make some effort to bring it to that second level of bringing anything back from the graveyard directly into play. Underlines the desperate need for GY control in metagames.

In direct contradiction to what I've just said, I love Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest. He's bonkers. If you're going to do stupid recursion engines, this is how you do it, baby. I actually think that he's too cheap at 3GB for a 2/2, the mix of G ramp & B tutors lets you put loops together quite easily, only costing 5cc seems very achievable, especially as you don't need him in play until you are ready to go off. Even not building around him gives you incidental triggers off stuff like Wilds/Expanses, Fetches. I think he (it?) will find a place in my Tasigur Lands deck, if only for that one huge Scapeshift turn.

Jelik wrote:
UG- the snake tribal commander is cool for multiple uses. Ezuri is pretty boring imo. There are some cool new spells and some welcome reprints.


Kaseto, Orochi Archmage looks great as another voltron guy but also as a Snake tribal commander. Not my cup of tea personally but some in my group already has him "built" (i.e.: proxied). He's a house. Unblockable is really good, who'd have thought?

Not a huge fan of Ezuri, Claw of Progress either but I can see him make some huge plays with Fathom Mage & my favourite card in the extension,Pathbreaker Ibex*. He's in good protection colours and it's really easy to get his experience up.

Jelik wrote:
UR- I like this for the completeness of my commander precon box. It seems that the spells matters deck will fill a new niche that isn't being filled. This is one deck where they hit the right reprint commander, I doubt I will use either of the others to lead this deck.


As I've said before, this is no longer a deck-type I enjoy playing and I doubt that either Commander here will change that. I can see Mizzix of the Izmagnus is good, I just don't want my games to be those 2 turns of "Use all my mana to level her up, untap and profit, win". I have less issue doing things like that in other color mixes because there's common solutions to the questions I present (generally Rest in Peace :D ) No idea it either Commander will take off in my group but it's unlikely. Anyone want to trade for a Arjun, the Shifting Flame? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-10 8:57 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Going to pick up the Golgari one. I'm just dove-eyed over the recursion commander and the sacrifice-based one is fun too. And I wasn't going to build anymore decks, grumble grumble...

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-12 5:08 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Alright, alright... I have finally found both time an inspiration to write up a set review for my old blog. I am hoping to get back into writing on a regular basis, but every time I THINK I have gotten back into the swing of things, I tend to drop off after a few posts, so I'm not going to assume this time will be different. But for now, I am excited to write about the new C15 decks. Here's the link if anyone's interested:

http://thecommandzone.blogspot.com/2015/11/commander-2015-set-review.html

I've also updated my sig so it no longer links to the Gatecrash set review. Jeez, I've been lazy the last couple of years!

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-12 12:52 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
thaumaturge wrote:
Alright, alright... I have finally found both time an inspiration to write up a set review for my old blog. I am hoping to get back into writing on a regular basis, but every time I THINK I have gotten back into the swing of things, I tend to drop off after a few posts, so I'm not going to assume this time will be different. But for now, I am excited to write about the new C15 decks. Here's the link if anyone's interested:

http://thecommandzone.blogspot.com/2015/11/commander-2015-set-review.html

I've also updated my sig so it no longer links to the Gatecrash set review. Jeez, I've been lazy the last couple of years!


Nice review. I personally think the black and white confluence is better then the red confluence as my only nitpick. I never see myself using the red one ever.

I also know it's a meta call, but political cards always seem to work in my favour, so I enjoy them. I do think I'm particular good at not becoming the arch enemy of the table though.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-12 7:45 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
thaumaturge wrote:
Alright, alright... I have finally found both time an inspiration to write up a set review for my old blog. I am hoping to get back into writing on a regular basis, but every time I THINK I have gotten back into the swing of things, I tend to drop off after a few posts, so I'm not going to assume this time will be different. But for now, I am excited to write about the new C15 decks. Here's the link if anyone's interested:

http://thecommandzone.blogspot.com/2015/11/commander-2015-set-review.html


Yay, Blog updates!! Must do one myself! :)

thaumaturge's blog wrote:
Wrapping Up

All in all, I feel like there is a lot of valid cause for complaint with this set, especially for an old-timer like me, but despite the many things I have bitched about, I’m still quite pumped to get these decks in my hands. I feel like for all their faults and misguided choices, WotC is still getting closer and closer to nailing this product. We’re getting much closer to a baseline of power that isn’t too extreme in either direction – something other Commander offerings have struggled with in the past.
Every year, they improve upon their ability to understand what Commander players actually want, and for every step they take backwards, I do think they are taking two steps forward. And, while I would certainly appreciate a little more adventurousness and creativity in their designs going forward, I am pleased that they aren’t still designing cards the way they did back in the 2011 decks.
Commander 2011 was a major paradigm shift for the format in a lot of ways, and while I definitely am not looking for that level of shake-up to happen again so soon, I feel the pendulum is starting to swing too far in the other direction – they aren’t shaking things up quite enough. C15 is definitely still exciting, but feels much more tame, conservative, and safe than any previous Commander set.
They have figured out how to design for this format pretty darn well, but now they need to figure out how to design cards that will really shake up the format without breaking it. I think they came really close to hitting that particular mark with the Planeswalker commanders last year. Hopefully they will do more of that in the future.


I decided after last year that I would change my mental approach to these products and I feel that it's a pov that would go a long way to alleviating some of the issues you have with C15. Basically they are not designing this product for you and me. That's not to say that we don't get thrown some sweet cards but the majority of people on here have either extensive collections or have extensively traded for those 4-5 strategies that interest them. I don't play straight RW, BW or UR any more so I don't evaluate new cards to fit into these colour shells, whatever the strategy. What I do play is RWU, RUG, BUG, UGW, etc. so now any new cards spoiled have to be thematic or effective enough to fit into these pools. Even within restrictive themes 3-colour pools have a much higher bar so I'm likely to be more much more critical.

Taking mono coloured decks gives you a similiar high bar. How good or thematic does a new card have to be to fit into your Mono-B deck, for example? Where does Devour Thrinax or Vinecrusher Centaur go into the majority of Mono-G decks? What's amazing for me (the Centaur because I have a GUB deck ready-made for it) is not for my neighbour who doesn't play green or his neighbour who doesn't care about lands. On the flip side the Thrinax will languish in my folders but make both the Savra & Vorel players in my group very happy.

We also have the cards that make the product interesting (like the Myriad cycle) but are unlikely to find a home in all but the most casual decks constructed outside the product. (I think there's a tokens/populate/Doubling Season deck that will love the green guy). I think they are great Commander Cube cards though, so each piece has some value somewhere, just not this piece and not to you or me.

So we have reached a point where we Commander 1%-ers (referring to the 1% of Commander players who actually make the effort to converse online about the format in relation to the numbe rof actual players) don't need or want 475 of the 500 cards in these products but we're still reacting to the products as a whole or to individual cards in the 475. We'll be happy with small section of reprints we didn't have or are happy to have in multiples and the 10-15 new cards that are a good fit for us. Does that make the set worse than C14? I don't think so, I think we have just become more demanding.

I honestly don't think you can make this product please everybody (and, to be fair to WotC, they are trying to hit multiple player demographics with each deck, it's a thankless task!) If the decks are too unique you risk alienating everybody who doesn't share your particular view of that colour pair (Daxos is a clear example, people who don't go for Enchantment decks won't be drawn to BW by Daxos) and you still have to find 50 existing non-land cards to reprint into the deck to support your unique theme. Playing to the mean with a couple of outliers (Vinecrasher Centaur anyone?) is a better way of hitting the majority of your target audiences even if you never please everyone.

tl;dr : trade for singles. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 12:17 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Well said, zimagic.

@thaumaturge: I'm curious to know why you feel Kharov is underwhelming? He jumped out at me as one of the better commanders in the set. Aggressively costed for a Voltron role, his second ability allows him to have relevance in the midrange or late game as well. He's well placed to take advantage of the gain life/spend life shenanigans WB is so good at. I even think he'd be a good choice for a more control-y BW build. He seems well able to take incremental life gain and play well in any speed of deck, or even a deck that is flexible enough to be in all three speeds at need.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 1:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I'm curious to know why you feel Kharov is underwhelming? He jumped out at me as one of the better commanders in the set. Aggressively costed for a Voltron role, his second ability allows him to have relevance in the midrange or late game as well. He's well placed to take advantage of the gain life/spend life shenanigans WB is so good at. I even think he'd be a good choice for a more control-y BW build. He seems well able to take incremental life gain and play well in any speed of deck, or even a deck that is flexible enough to be in all three speeds at need.


I'd go with this too. He makes a themed deck (lifegain / control), he fits right into an existing archetype very well (Orolo Contorolo) and he opens doors into voltron strategies in a color pair not particularly known for getting their beatdown on and he plays well with Tiny Leaders & Dual Commander. He's got a powerful effect but one that's difficult to abuse without a lot of hoops. I really like him as an addition to the Commander pool.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 3:53 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Appreciate it!

RE: the confluences
I am aware I might be overvaluing the red one, and undervaluing the black one. But I can't help but evaluate them in term of my metagame. And right now, I think the Red and White ones only have one good mode each, but that mode is very relevant to where my meta is at. Popping 3 artifacts for four mana or exiling 3 enchantments for 5 mana are both very strong plays for me, right now. I don't have any decks that care about making 2/2 Knights or gaining life, so I rank those modes very low. But I rank the Red one ahead of the White one because going for 3 damage to all creatures, while far from being a reliable sweeper overall, does actually do a lot of work against tokens and weenies, of which I have seen an influx recently. Meanwhile, the black one is actually really good card advantage with two of it's modes, but that -2/-2 mode is so damned awful that it feels like this Confluence actually only has two modes. That is more of an emotional bias than a logical one, but my style of card evaluation has always been a mixture of both cold analysis and gut feeling.

A year from now, or however long it takes my metagame to shift, I will likely come to value these differently, I am sure. The only one I am really sure is never going to change is that the green one will always be my favorite.

RE: Karlov
Time to confess: I am being somewhat coy about Karlov. I am actually more intrigued by him than I let on. But yet, he doesn't actually make me feel INSPIRED. It's a fine line to walk between a commander that "builds itself" (think: Nekusar), and something that just immediately suggests a style of deck and maybe half a dozen obvious cards but the rest of the deck is wide open.

Like, take Arjun for example. Sure, everyone and their mother will tell you Psychosis Crawler, Niv-Mizzet and Alhamarret's Archive are the first three cards you absolutely have to have... but beyond those? Arjun is generic enough that you can run almost ANYTHING in the deck, but still suggests some clear, direct synergies.

Karlov? I don't know. I just can't get a real grasp as to what I would want a Karlov deck to DO, how I would want it to FEEL. That's been my problem with almost ALL Orzhov generals so far. Teysa 1.0 is the only exception, but someone else beat me to her, and even that other person's very untuned, haphazard version of Teysa was an oppressive monster, so I have considered her off limits because my version would be even worse, I'm sure.

It's hard to explain because it's an abstract thing, kind of - but when I look at a general, my "inspiration" comes usually in the form of: three to four specific cards come to mind, but more importantly I have an overall FEELING about what I want the deck to be, identity-wise. I can just thumb through my binders and boxes and pull out cards on an almost instinctive level. If I have to go on gatherer to find more than 2 or 3 cards, I feel like I'm forcing it somehow.

Karlov... I feel like he COULD be the W/B commander I've been waiting for, but no matter how many times I read his card text, I fail to feel that creative spark of "Ah ha! I know what this deck should do! I know how to build this!"

I had the same problem with Vish Kal. I eventually got that deck to the point where it performed pretty well, and it won a decent % of the time. It was far from my most powerful deck, but even farther from being the worst. I liked it. Yet, even in playing it, it just felt... GENERIC. Like, the themes of the deck where clearly present in the card selection, but they didn't translate to an actual play experience where I could FEEL the themes through game play. I greatly desire to play decks where my vision of what the deck is, and how the deck feels to play... mesh or align or whatever. I don't know how to explain it.

Vish Kal never FELT the way I thought it out to feel. I just have this vague notion that Karlov will be the same. Even if the deck works, even if it wins, it won't have that "feeling" that the themes or ideas I'm exploring through the deckbuilding process have translated successfully into a comparable, thematic gameplay experience.

This all probably sounds horribly pretentious and I don't feel like I have at all adequately conveyed the precise ideas I'm trying to get across. But hopefully it'll still make some sense anyway.

RE: Z's "this product is not meant for us" essay
I get where you're coming from. I do not agree that buying or trading for singles is the way to go, but I'll get to why in a second. The first point I want to make, though, is that before this set, I've never even come close to questioning whether I want to buy all 5 decks. It was a given that I would and I have never once come close to regretting it afterward. This set, though, BARELY feels like it's worth the $150 or whatever to get the full set... there's a reason for that, but I think my reason is totally different from yours.

One of the biggest draws of these decks, aside from the individual cards themselves, is the "tuning" process. As much as I love to play Magic, and while buying/trading/discussing Magic are all high points as well, my #1 true passion in this game is deck building. I love building, optimizing, re-configuring. Theorizing, brainstorming and problem solving. I could almost say I play my decks only to prove to myself that my ideas and theories hold merit, and that winning a game with a new deck is simply validation that my solutions work. But, if that were strictly true, I'd only ever play a deck long enough to be sure my first win or two weren't flukes, and then it'd be over for that deck, on to the next.

Anyway, a big part of the value of the $150 purchase comes from, first, having a whole new deck to play with new commanders and new cards, second, from the creative process of then fine-tuning and improving the original lists, and/or changing the whole thing into something else if the original idea didn't pan out. I want to experience as much of what each commander release has to offer as possible, rather than just cherry-picking the sweetest and most obvious of new experiences.

In light of all of that, it becomes clear to me that my true biggest complaint with C15 is that four of the five decks do not offer a "new experience" at least in terms of overall deck themes - The Golgari, Boros, Simic and Izzet decks all provide almost identical play experiences to decks I have already HAD in their respective colors. The Orzhov deck does actually offer a new experience for it's color pair, but it's not one that looks fun or interesting to me, at least on paper. All of the past Commander sets have absolutely brought new experiences, at least for me. I thought the C14 decks were the pinnacle of WotC's accomplishments because they actually got me to play monocolored EDH decks and not be miserably bored! TOTALLY new experience for me.

In short, I have never had a Commander release so utterly fail to provide something entirely new and unexplored for me to play with. At least when I look at the decks as a whole. Individual cards are pretty damn sweet - so I can definitely see where going after singles is the way to go from a strictly financial standpoint, if that was all I cared about.

So right now I'm pretty sure that, after the customary "play them out of the box" trial period, I'll be lucky to get one entirely new deck for my stables - Arjun seems the most likely to stick around. But I am very much hoping that one of the two Orzhov guys will surprise me and after playing them a bit I will find the inspiration neither is giving me at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 5:38 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-07 11:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I am in a slightly different perspective. I keep all the commander decks together, in a box ready to go (holiday boxes hold 12 commander decks, so I have 2 used for this). The decks seems mostly playable at a table of these precons (the blue/red one feels terrible to goldfish). Also some of the new uncommon level cards seem like they will be really fun to play with in this set up. I'm looking forward to getting together with my group an testing them out.

With this in mind, I really like the themes of most of the decks (again not R/U, unless I'm wrong).


I agree with your assessment that they missed the opportunity to make experience counters cool. Some extra spells that cared about experience counters or spells that gave experience counters would have made them way better. So far, the giant is the experience counters commander that looks most playable to me, but it's because it feels similar to skullbriar (but in my favorite color pair instead of my second favorite). The Green black one looks like ghost chieftain, which has been oppressive in custom built decks. The blue green one feels really uninspired. The UR is a durdle card. The black/white one I think will be great with even a small enchantment support, it's both tokens matter and enchantments matter.

The other commanders, I think, had more room to play with (not having to worry about the silly mechanic).

The blue red sphynx is weird. It's pretty open ended once you can get past or ignore the auto includes (I don't want to run the niv-mizzet type cards in this deck) it seems it could be fun. I want to try to build something here, just haven't figured out what.

The RW angel is iffy. Part of me really likes her, but part of me is really off put. I think she may be a sleeper in the idea that she isn't going to get you targeted as quickly as some other RW angel commanders would (say playing a tribal angel deck). I just think they should have given her vigilance in her default mode (as a throwback to serra).

The ghost council guy is awesome for Tiny Leaders. Not sure why he would be played over Vish in commander, but it's an option I guess. But in the TL soul sisters deck he is going to be a house.

BG insect guy. He's fine, but I've been somewhat taking out cards that make me play with 10000 dice every time something happens out of my decks. +1/+1 counters in general are starting to bother me. He doesn't inspire me enough to want to deal with tracking the counters.

UG snake. This guy seems really interesting to me. One, he seems like a great voltron commander (at least in theory) in colors that aren't typical for voltron. Secondly snake tribal sounds like a fun deck to build.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 6:45 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Jelik wrote:
The ghost council guy is awesome for Tiny Leaders. Not sure why he would be played over Vish in commander, but it's an option I guess. But in the TL soul sisters deck he is going to be a house.


Because he plays completely differently and costs two instead of seven. He's hyper aggressive and can easily switch modes mid game to play control without sacrificing any momentum. His kill effect is far stronger as it exiles and is essentially "free" compared to requiring a power for power sacrifice on top of removing counters from him. Vish Kal requires a creature/recursion heavy deck and really has nothing to do with life gain.

If you put the two commanders against each other, Vish Kal would likely be dead long before he was anywhere near seven mana. I can see 21 commander damage reliably doled out by turn 4-6. Vish Kal isn't bad and certainly has some good potential for breaking the game but he's in a much different position. Different theme, different power level, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 7:40 am 
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Location: New Zealand
Jelik wrote:
The RW angel is iffy. Part of me really likes her, but part of me is really off put. I think she may be a sleeper in the idea that she isn't going to get you targeted as quickly as some other RW angel commanders would (say playing a tribal angel deck). I just think they should have given her vigilance in her default mode (as a throwback to serra)..


Oh man, you just made me very sad and may have ruined what little enjoyment I might have had trying a Anya control list (I'm a sucker for the underdogs). The simple addition of vigilance to her would have actually had her go from a OK finisher for a RW control style list to an amazing one. Merciless on the offense, merciless on the defense.

I'm so f'ing sad now haha.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 8:27 am 
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thaumaturge wrote:

RE: the confluences
I am aware I might be overvaluing the red one, and undervaluing the black one. But I can't help but evaluate them in term of my metagame. And right now, I think the Red and White ones only have one good mode each, but that mode is very relevant to where my meta is at. Popping 3 artifacts for four mana or exiling 3 enchantments for 5 mana are both very strong plays for me, right now. I don't have any decks that care about making 2/2 Knights or gaining life, so I rank those modes very low. But I rank the Red one ahead of the White one because going for 3 damage to all creatures, while far from being a reliable sweeper overall, does actually do a lot of work against tokens and weenies, of which I have seen an influx recently. Meanwhile, the black one is actually really good card advantage with two of it's modes, but that -2/-2 mode is so damned awful that it feels like this Confluence actually only has two modes. That is more of an emotional bias than a logical one, but my style of card evaluation has always been a mixture of both cold analysis and gut feeling.


I guess my perspective is to rate the cards both as a whole and without meta game considerations.

What I mean by rating the cards as a whole is I place more value on the Confluences that have practical uses for all their options, rather then just two.

Hmm harder to explain then I thought. The confluences are meant to have three versatile options, not two. So those (the red and white ones specifically) that I see as basically having only two real options in any average Commander game I rate less.

So I see the black as draw 3, or recur 3, or kill a 6/6 as more versatile in the cards and cycles intent then destroy 3 artifacts and sweep weenies, or deal negligible damage to your opponents.

So my order for the Confluences goes U, B, G, W, R. I value the W one over the R one because exiling enchantments (gods in particular) is stronger then destroying 3 artifacts. I do think sweeping weenies is better then 3 2/2 tokens though, so they are close. Greens +1/+1 counters aren't stellar, but the ability is more likely to be used in a range of green lists in general then the third options of the R and W Confluence (which could see uses in some lists that care about gaining life or damage to the face, but that's narrow).

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 Post subject: Re: Commander 2015 Reactions
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-13 9:15 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
~18 damage for 2RR is negligible? About the only way to get more efficient is to chump block with an arcbond... It's also in a color that mass copies spells.

I would rate them U/B/R/W/G. Blue is by far the best of the cycle with instant speed and three modes that are always relevant. Black is the only other instant which makes up for some weaker modes. Red has three great modes at a decent cost but less useful in general than the other two color's options. White is decent but life gain is not generally amazing and the tokens would be a lot more exciting at instant. (This would probably jump to second place at instant) Green is just trash with two generally useless modes and the other being overcosted. I'm sure they will all see play but they'll likely all begin to fall out of favor with the exception of Blue after a few months.


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