Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Sep-17 1:48 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-28 12:15 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Sep-28 11:55 am
Age: Wyvern
I'm getting a little worried about the state of Commander outside of my local league. But it might just be me ranting about these new whipper-snappers. I don't know. Be warned, long post ahead.

"Commander is a Magic:The Gathering format which emphasises multiplayer play, social interactions, interesting games, and creative deckbuilding." -- "That vision is predicated on a social contract: a gentleman's agreement which goes beyond these rules to includes a degree of interactivity between players." -- mtgcommander.net

I've been playing this format since we called it EDH. It's always been my chance to chill and play with cards that were never quite good enough for Constructed or whose heyday had passed. Salt was rare, surprisingly enough. Crazy plays, hilarious interactions, and bizarre board states made it truly a different game every time we sat down, even if we used the same decks. I remember laughing almost every game, though that could be nostalgia talking.

As many of my friends and I have observed, this old-school spirit of Commander is eroding.

Sure, there were always broken generals. Arcum Dagsson, Azami, Sharuum, Zur -- they were lightning rods of hate for the table. But if everyone got sick of that crap, the offending person was no-sir'd out of the local community until s/he played decks that could be fun. That doesn't happen anymore.

More and more, I see Commander decks built to abuse the format. It seems that nearly every new deck I see incorporates either an infinite combo or a nearly unbreakable board lock. It's never been hard to break the format; one doesn't prove anything by doing so. I'm even seeing Geddon effects played consistently and shamelessly -- a massive faux pas in the old days. Among players who don't even attend FNMs, I've been infinite combo'd three separate times in the last three days prior to turn 7. Sure you *can* interact with them if you have the exact right mana at the exact right time and the exact right card, but otherwise nobody gets to play Magic. If I wanted to play against this stuff, I'd sleeve up my Forces and play Legacy -- at least then I could stop it if I tapped out.

The most disheartening aspect of this is that the community as a whole accepts it now. I want to believe these are isolated cases, but it sure feels like this is endemic now. Commander has become a Spike format where four people gather to see who can combo first with little and fleeting interactions. I thought I'd left that behind at Yu-Gi-Oh. The lack of bans for obnoxiously broken cards (Omniscience, Mindslaver since it'll never just be one time) and bizarre rules blunders (new tuck rule, which we thankfully haven't adopted) have contributed, but the zeitgeist of Commander has just plain blown past me.

Reading the rules forum's stickies from way past makes me remember how the foundation of this format was set. But now it also makes me feel like the foundation has crumbled. For example, the following is from Sheldon's Philosophy Document for cards that should consider bans:

Quote:
* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. Some cards produce the kinds of games we’d like to avoid and we see them as creating a negative experience for a majority of the player base. They tend to be anticlimactic wins out of nowhere, unexpected combos that end an otherwise enjoyable game, or creating situations which completely take play of the game away from the other players.


Far from creating ban discussions, "anticlimactic wins out of nowhere, unexpected combos that end an otherwise enjoyable game, or creating situations which completely take play of the game away from the other players" have become the norm as far as I can tell, and it saddens me deeply. But it seems that others don't consider them a negative experience anymore, either, so maybe the rule still applies after all.

Maybe I'm a relic of the past, obsolete in my thoughts and philosophy. But outside of this one league, I'm not having fun playing Commander anymore, even when I win. I feel like a kid with a Standard deck at a Vintage Mox tournament. And that sucks.

_________________
"I'd rather lose an awesome game than win a boring one."

Decks:
Karrthus, Jund Cena
Hazezon Tamar, Token Spammer
Jeleva, Herald of Cruel Ultimatums


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-28 1:14 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Jun-13 11:10 pm
Age: Drake
I kind of agree with you, but it seems the only solution for you and me is to retreat to our kitchen tables, which I have done recently and haven't looked back since. I wish sometimes, when my regular playgroup is unavailable I could go to one of a the many stores around my place and grab a FUN game, but that's not possible anymore. Online is also a big no-no since everyone disconnects the moment the board state does not please them. Maybe I fill the gaps of when I am not playing EDH with a new hobby perhaps...

_________________
(The land continues to burn after Obsidian Fireheart has left the battlefield.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-28 1:42 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
First thing I have to say is that the EDH banlist will never again be tailored to police combos. It was tried, and it was a miserable failure. Sure, you could argue to ban the "worst offenders", but then new cards will take their place and you'll either have 5-10 cards whose banning didn't make the format any better or you'll have 50-200+ cards banned and in doing so suck the fun out of the format. If you look at the current banlist you'll realize that every single card on the list (except Servant, which doesn't belong) that was banned for combo-related reasons is kept on for other reasons.

And I think the single biggest problem in your situation is that the format the other people are playing is indeed not the same format you are. I've said before that there are essentially 3 types of multiplayer EDH decks. There are full casual decks, which are built with fun as being the single biggest motivator behind the build of the deck. Then there are what I like to call "optimized casual", which are decks that are built with winning the game as a focus, yet there is still adherence to a social contract to prevent the deck from spoiling everyone else's fun. And finally, there are hyper competitive decks, which are built with victory as the sole purpose. Now, I'm thinking that there should be a fourth category, with me debating between naming it "wannabe competitive" and "cheap shot". These decks are like competitive decks in that they don't adhere to any social contract and are willing to use unfun/antisocial tactics or cards, but at the same time if one of them were ever played in a real competitive meta its win percentage would probably be in the single digits if not straight up 0. You could almost look at it like a graph with the X axis being relative power level and the y axis being caring about other people's fun.

Now, the biggest problem is that you seem to be playing against mostly competitive and wannabe competitive decks when you yourself mostly build and like to play against full casual and/or optimized casual decks. There are two ways to fix this problem. The first is to try to communicate that you aren't enjoying the types of games that are going on. I personally have built decks that fit into all of the categories (except wannabe competitive) specifically so I can enjoy a game with anyone who plays any of those decks exclusively. I'm sure you can talk to players who have multiple decks and say something like "Hey, could we not play Derevi or Riku combo this time? How about that Omnath deck of yours, that one's fun. I also am a pretty big fan of your Bruna and Kaervek decks too." Unfortunately, this may not work, and in that scenario your only option is to either leave them and only play with individuals who want the same type of game or to join them and start fighting fire with fire.

But to answer the title question, I do not believe the spirit of the format has changed. What I think actually happened is analogous to what is going on in many African countries now. Those countries are experiencing some pretty serious turmoil and have been for years. The big reason why is that European powers took a bunch of tribes that didn't get along and wanted little or nothing to do with each other and made them all be part of the same country. That's what I think the biggest problem with EDH right now is: we've got a bunch of people who are all trying to play different games, but since they all are technically forms of EDH they often cross paths and with disastrous results.

_________________


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-28 3:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Metagames evolve. What I've observed locally is we went from janky fun decks (this is WAY back, around when Llorwyn was being released) to increasingly powerful and anti-social decks as more and more goodies were released. At some point, I don't recall the exact time frame, the pendulum began to swing the other way. A lot of the most cutthroat players just stopped playing EDH (or in some cases MTG at all) and the rest of us started playing more relaxed decks. There's a few holdouts in the "look at me I can cast Tooth and Nail, aren't I cool?" crowd, but for the most part that can be handled with as you put it "No sir" responses.

I guess the best advice I can give you is to stick to the league where you do have fun, and just try to remember that the guys that like to compete to see who can combo off the fastest probably enjoy playing that way. And if you find out they DON'T, perhaps they can be nudged into defusing the arms race.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-28 5:23 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I agreed with a lot of your thoughts, until

trdl23 wrote:
Commander has become a Spike format where four people gather to see who can combo first with little and fleeting interactions. I thought I'd left that behind at Yu-Gi-Oh. The lack of bans for obnoxiously broken cards (Omniscience, Mindslaver since it'll never just be one time) and bizarre rules blunders (new tuck rule, which we thankfully haven't adopted) have contributed


The tuck rule change was designed to benefit groups such as yours who wanted to have fun with their commanders. The Spikes are the ones most upset with the change and casual players are reporting more fun. You might want to try it.

Omniscience and Mindslaver are not much fun, but banning them doesn't do a lot. There's a whole lot of cards on that level. It's about the mentality, not the cards themselves.

Ultimately, a lot of people have gravitated towards Commander, and some of them have spikier tendencies than the format can really support. That's why we encourage social groups and "spirit of the format" over a doomed quest to try to regulate them into being fun. I'd love to hear other solutions.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-28 9:30 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2011-Jun-13 11:10 pm
Age: Drake
@Papafunk: I have this one thing to say about the tuck rule, feel free to answer me or not. I won't overly mind. I have stayed silent for a long time on that issue, but you, yourself, don't you think that when generals could be tucked, it created the dynamic that in EDH(Commander), tuck was the stronger removal. It added to the format by making that one thing unique to it. Tuck cards were stronger than exile because of that. Now exile is back on top, and tuck lost this little special place it had in EDH.

I can understand bad feelings over getting your general tucked and having a bad game, but I think now people are recklessly casting commanders with no care whatsoever of the commander tax. Maybe it's what you guys wanted it at, but does that mean the 10 or so years, I don't know, that tuck was legal, the rule comity was in the error?

_________________
(The land continues to burn after Obsidian Fireheart has left the battlefield.)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-28 10:37 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uthanak wrote:
does that mean the 10 or so years, I don't know, that tuck was legal, the rule comity was in the error?
Too much of an acceptable thing can become a problem. Take, for example, mono red aggro in Standard throughout history. Below a certain concentration of efficient threats and burn, each individual card is a non-issue. Above the level where you have a viable deck though, each incremental improvement that is totally fine in the abstract becomes an increasingly large problem.

There are times when I was right yesterday, and I'm right today, but yesterday-me would have disagreed with today-me. Things change. New cards are printed every 2 months.

See also: the unbannings of cards in Legacy and Vintage yesterday.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 12:31 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uthanak wrote:
@Papafunk: I have this one thing to say about the tuck rule, feel free to answer me or not. I won't overly mind. I have stayed silent for a long time on that issue, but you, yourself, don't you think that when generals could be tucked, it created the dynamic that in EDH(Commander), tuck was the stronger removal. It added to the format by making that one thing unique to it. Tuck cards were stronger than exile because of that. Now exile is back on top, and tuck lost this little special place it had in EDH.


I don't think that's an additive uniqueness. That's a pretty arbitrary form of removal to be on top, and not one consistent with the wider Magic design (blue also gets the premier removal?) The special place was "can stop people from removing commanders". That's pretty un-special in the wider scheme of things.

Uthanak wrote:
I can understand bad feelings over getting your general tucked and having a bad game, but I think now people are recklessly casting commanders with no care whatsoever of the commander tax. Maybe it's what you guys wanted it at, but does that mean the 10 or so years, I don't know, that tuck was legal, the rule comity was in the error?


Yes and no. It was the wrong decision, but the initial reason that tuck wasn't added is when the rules were formulated was because there was like one tuck spell and nobody noticed. Tuck didn't become a real thing until Future Sight, and didn't hit a relevant mass until a few years later. By that time, intertia had to be overcome, too.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 1:07 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Sep-28 11:55 am
Age: Wyvern
papa_funk wrote:
The tuck rule change was designed to benefit groups such as yours who wanted to have fun with their commanders. The Spikes are the ones most upset with the change and casual players are reporting more fun. You might want to try it.


We did try it, and it was miserable. There was no longer a way to ever answer Prossh, Derevi, Marath, or the more busted generals that meant anything (unless you played Nevermore I suppose, but that requires a White player who can support it, and it still doesn't solve Derevi). I'm okay with those cards existing if there's anything people can do about them, but that's no longer the case. In my (anecdotal) experience, the exact opposite of what you've stated has occurred; Spike players rejoiced for having less interaction to deal with while casual players mourned the loss of a dynamic portion of the game. I insist that it was a blunder, but that's neither here nor there; I'm not exactly in a position to change it.

I am glad I still have this one league to play in, but it remains frustrating that I can't play Commander with random people anymore. I'd prefer to play Commander outside of my little security blanket too. I don't believe that the rules committee would be responsible if it were to police fun. This is a cultural thing more than a structural thing (though Omniscience is still akin to Worldfire in my book because nobody plays Magic ever again, but I digress), so I really don't know what solutions we can have here. On a side note, whenever I read Sheldon's articles, I always think, "Man, I wish his community were representative of the population still."

@Sid: The "no sir" no longer works. Instead, it's me who gets isolated because everyone else is a combo or prison fiend as well. I thought it was just one place I used to play, but between multiple shops and plenty of casual friends I have played with in the past year, it's become at least endemic to my region if not the scene at large. They probably do enjoy playing that way, but at that point Commander is just another constructed format; the last sentence at the end of my first post still happens. I don't want to stop playing Commander outside of one night a week, but I also just can't have fun with it anymore because of this cultural shift. For me, at least, the pendulum just keeps going further and further out as more and more Spikes jump on board.

@Uktabi: That seems like an accurate assessment regarding the four kinds of decks. I certainly fluctuate between casual and optimized casual (though I still power down the decks that get optimized too much) whereas almost everyone outside my league seems to be in the wannabe competitive area. When I communicate that I don't enjoy the games, no matter how diplomatically, people jeer at me about salt and tell me that "maybe [I] should make better decks and quit being such a bitch." (Mods: if using that word in an exact quote is against policy, please change it as you see fit.) Never mind that I hand their backsides to them in actual competitive formats. Individuals who want the same type of game as me no longer seem to exist anywhere around me, and when I tried fighting fire with fire in my Damia deck, I was miserable even when I won; it was brainless. Regarding your last point, does that mishmash of different types of game not indicate a shift in the spirit of the format? It seems self-evident.

I'm afraid I've raised a problem without giving you a solution to it. As Uktabi and Funk pointed out, it's ridiculous to ban 50-200 unfun cards when the point of the format is that nearly anything goes -- hell, Sol Ring is legal. Similarly, making one Commander format for Spikes and one for non-Spikes will just lead to confusion and frustration when one camp sneaks into the other. Frankly, I just can't figure one out besides quitting the format outside of one night a week in one specific place. I have so many feel-bads about that because, well, I'm one of the old guard, a judge who was one of the early adopters, even if I've never been a member of online communities like this one before. I don't want to quit because others around me have (to my perception) twisted the format, but Magic inherently involves others to play. The last option is to jettison my investment, but that always seems like a last resort.

_________________
"I'd rather lose an awesome game than win a boring one."

Decks:
Karrthus, Jund Cena
Hazezon Tamar, Token Spammer
Jeleva, Herald of Cruel Ultimatums


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 1:46 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
trdl23 wrote:
Spike players rejoiced for having less interaction to deal with while casual players mourned the loss of a dynamic portion of the game.

Being a spike does not mean hating interaction, and "a dynamic portion of the game" does not seem like an apt description of "Ha ha, you can't have your general anymore!".

trdl23 wrote:
The "no sir" no longer works. Instead, it's me who gets isolated because everyone else is a combo or prison fiend as well.

I didn't say it would work in a vacuum - I said it works for me. Out of curiosity, are you being proactive in your search for good games, or are you sitting down, finding out they're playing combo/prison halfway through the game and getting salty?

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 1:47 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
trdl23 wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
The tuck rule change was designed to benefit groups such as yours who wanted to have fun with their commanders. The Spikes are the ones most upset with the change and casual players are reporting more fun. You might want to try it.


We did try it, and it was miserable. There was no longer a way to ever answer Prossh, Derevi, Marath, or the more busted generals that meant anything (unless you played Nevermore I suppose, but that requires a White player who can support it, and it still doesn't solve Derevi). I'm okay with those cards existing if there's anything people can do about them, but that's no longer the case.

I personally think the false hope of "maybe it will get tucked" was worse than just having the talk with the player about their expectations of the game. It sucks that you don't have a large number of randos who are wanting the same thing as you.

Quote:
When I communicate that I don't enjoy the games, no matter how diplomatically, people jeer at me about salt and tell me that "maybe [I] should make better decks and quit being such a bitch."

I've always found passive aggression is the way to go with people who are completely intransigent. When sitting down, "Are we playing to have fun or are we playing to see who combos out?" Have the most degenerate combo deck that you can muster (perhaps Ad Nauseam or Hermit Druid combo, but something that is actually a competitive combo deck rather than some pseudo-control with a combo finish). If they insist on playing pseudo-competitive, play actual competitive to release your anger and hopefully slap the everliving shit out of them.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 2:31 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Sep-28 11:55 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Being a spike does not mean hating interaction, and "a dynamic portion of the game" does not seem like an apt description of "Ha ha, you can't have your general anymore!"

Combo players or even just straight linear players would rather do their thing than have somebody disrupt them in my experience. And I feel many generals should have the same "can't be mad" rule when they get tucked (like the ones I mentioned in my previous post) as something like Cathars' Crusade being destroyed. if you can't win without your commander or get it back from your library, you haven't diversified enough IMO, but that's admittedly a personal philosophy.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
I didn't say it would work in a vacuum - I said it works for me. Out of curiosity, are you being proactive in your search for good games, or are you sitting down, finding out they're playing combo/prison halfway through the game and getting salty?

My apologies for misunderstanding you. I suppose I'm not being proactive enough -- I simply ask "Are we being casual or combo-heavy about this?" and people from both camps reply "Casual" nine times out of ten. In their mind, they are casual because their decks aren't as consistent as 60-card decks. They're interactive because they can, in theory, be stopped. The salt has only started to appear recently because of frustration of being duped so many times, yet I always fall for it.

@Jackson: My point is that talking with the players about their expectations has become useless. The problem is apparently with me and not them. Passive aggression isn't how I like to operate; like I said, I had a face-smashing Damia deck with all the most obnoxious cards you can think of, but even when I won I hated it because it took no skill. Every game was the same. The most damning part of it was that it taught nobody a lesson -- it was accepted with open arms.

_________________
"I'd rather lose an awesome game than win a boring one."

Decks:
Karrthus, Jund Cena
Hazezon Tamar, Token Spammer
Jeleva, Herald of Cruel Ultimatums


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 3:40 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
trdl23 wrote:
I feel many generals should have the same "can't be mad" rule when they get tucked (like the ones I mentioned in my previous post) as something like Cathars' Crusade being destroyed. if you can't win without your commander or get it back from your library, you haven't diversified enough IMO, but that's admittedly a personal philosophy.


This philosophy seems to be an adoption of a competitive mindset much like the one you say you despised earlier.

To put it another way: why is it not acceptable for your group, a lot of whom seem to have found a way they personally like to play EDH, to expect you to adapt to them, but it is acceptable for you to expect a casual player to be able to play without their favorite legendary creature, that they probably built their whole deck around because they loved it?

_________________
Current Commanders: 6/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


Last edited by Swmystery on 2015-Sep-29 3:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 3:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
trdl23 wrote:
Combo players or even just straight linear players would rather do their thing than have somebody disrupt them in my experience.

No one WANTS to be stopped, regardless of their deck, and "combo player" is again, not the same as "spike".

trdl23 wrote:
if you can't win without your commander or get it back from your library, you haven't diversified enough IMO, but that's admittedly a personal philosophy.

You complained in the OP about people telling you to "build better decks" when you express distaste for their playstyle. How is this different? Are you not effectively saying people that don't like tuck should "build better decks"?

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Spirit of Commander Has Shifted from its Roots?
AgePosted: 2015-Sep-29 3:46 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
You complained in the OP about people telling you to "build better decks" when you express distaste for their playstyle. How is this different? Are you not effectively saying people that don't like tuck should "build better decks"?


I like it when you and I are on the same page.

_________________
Current Commanders: 6/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: