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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-11 3:15 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ski Gloves wrote:
sir squab wrote:
What evidence do you have that it backfired? Beyond a few like-minded entrenched MTG players disliking her, do you have actual evidence that the focus directed towards Nissa has backfired?


I for one like the new Nissa. She's next to Kiora as my favourite Planeswalker, though I agree that the retcon was a bad idea. Making her grow as a character to trust other races and have her become more accepting of other races as the Zendikari ally together to fight the Eldrazi? It would've made for a much more natural character growth and it wouldn't have been bad.

The Planeswalker I hate most? Hilariously, Sorin Markov. The dude is in the location of things happening, yet never actually did anything for any of them. Watched Tarkir be destroyed, watched the Eldrazi while Nahiri and Ugin actually did something about it, hell all he did for his own plane is make Avacyn and play with Tybalt.

... This thread has derailed hilariously.


I agree with you about Nissa, but couldn't disagree more with you about Sorin. He helped Ugin and Nahiri, he woke Ugin after the Hedron preserved/healed him.

He is a much more interesting character than Jace.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-11 12:06 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
sir squab wrote:
What evidence do you have that it backfired? Beyond a few like-minded entrenched MTG players disliking her, do you have actual evidence that the focus directed towards Nissa has backfired?


Check the reddit comments of any of her stories. No one likes her.

I think they just suck at making interesting green characters. They focus too much on the "muh nature" aspect of the color, and ignore the fact that there are green characteristics that do not require you to crap in the woods.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-11 2:35 pm 

Joined: 2015-Oct-11 12:27 pm
Age: Hatchling
Play group I had in VA before moving to MD was pretty open-minded. We had a regular group of 5 and another 3 that would play with us from time to time as their individual schedules allowed. The way we worked it was the regular 5 voted on things such as non-legendary commanders, mulligans, etc., and generally were pretty fair about it.

We allowed Nephilim's as generals for the four color decks since they were the only options in those color pairings. We allowed a few other non-legendary creatures to be generals (can't remember who off the top of my head because they didn't seem to last long). We approved the use of a few other Planeswalkers as generals.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-11 5:13 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-15 5:03 am
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DarksteelElephant wrote:
sir squab wrote:
What evidence do you have that it backfired? Beyond a few like-minded entrenched MTG players disliking her, do you have actual evidence that the focus directed towards Nissa has backfired?


Check the reddit comments of any of her stories. No one likes her.

I think they just suck at making interesting green characters. They focus too much on the "muh nature" aspect of the color, and ignore the fact that there are green characteristics that do not require you to crap in the woods.


Given that WotC's data says Jace is the most popular walker while the vocal opinion of most online communities seems to range from apathy to hatred, I'm skeptical anytime I hear claims of "everyone hates him/her." The vocal group of entrenched MtG players does not actually represent the MtG community as a whole.

Honestly, how well a character is liked has more to do with art, flavor text and power level then it has to do their actual personality.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-12 12:23 am 
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Joined: 2014-Sep-30 6:38 am
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sir squab wrote:
DarksteelElephant wrote:
sir squab wrote:
What evidence do you have that it backfired? Beyond a few like-minded entrenched MTG players disliking her, do you have actual evidence that the focus directed towards Nissa has backfired?


Check the reddit comments of any of her stories. No one likes her.

I think they just suck at making interesting green characters. They focus too much on the "muh nature" aspect of the color, and ignore the fact that there are green characteristics that do not require you to crap in the woods.


Given that WotC's data says Jace is the most popular walker while the vocal opinion of most online communities seems to range from apathy to hatred, I'm skeptical anytime I hear claims of "everyone hates him/her." The vocal group of entrenched MtG players does not actually represent the MtG community as a whole.

Honestly, how well a character is liked has more to do with art, flavor text and power level then it has to do their actual personality.


The thing about Jace is that most Magic players don't care about the story, so they basically liked him because he was the best card. The people who cared about the story disliked him for a long time, though now he is more popular, having IMO the best origin story.

Edit: Welcome to the forums, WillNova! Thanks for trying to bring this back on topic lol.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-12 4:13 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ski Gloves wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
What does green have that benefits an animated lands strategy? Some ramp spells kinda help replace any dead lands... some graveyard to hand recursion... I guess you could animate them a second time to add redundancy and make them bigger than 0/0s but lose the haste or just become 0/0s again when you cast another spell. In other words, greens history of animating lands is completely irrelevant because those effects do not work with Noyan. Noyan will time stamp overwrite the other effect and even with Living Lands out your animated guys will be 0/0 with counters.


Earth Surge, the card that raises more questions, key questions, for me than any other.
Why was it printed?
Why was it printed in Ravnica block?
Who designed it?
Which developer thought it needed to be 4 mana?
Why did they think it needed to be 4 mana?
How come I'm the only player who seems to remember its existence?


I was on a break during that set so I never saw it but White already does Anthem effects better for cheaper... Seriously what were they thinking? Such a niche ability it should have cost 2 or maybe 3 since it's still +2.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-12 4:30 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
To be fair, these threads kind of always derail because they're usually easy to resolve. There are, for the most part, only so many cards that people want to HR as commanders, and most of the time it falls to the usual suspects (Nephilim, Genju, Elbrus, a 'walker or two). The answer is almost always "As long as your playgroup is cool with it," and the thread quickly disperses. That we've managed to evolve the discussion into this and carry it on this long is actually kind of impressive.

We're cool like that. As long as you aren't trying to do something like run a 4-color deck with Smokestack as the commander, it's probably going to be alright.

WillNova does bring up a good point about doing other house rules though. My group plays pretty close to the base rules as we can get, though we did change the mulligan up a little. Essentially you throw the cards you mulliganed back on the bottom of your library instead of shuffling them in, so it saves you a shuffle. Though we did have to enforce the regular partial paris in any game where Grenzo showed up, but so far he's the only one that's been a problem with it.
DarksteelElephant wrote:
The thing about Jace is that most Magic players don't care about the story, so they basically liked him because he was the best card. The people who cared about the story disliked him for a long time, though now he is more popular, having IMO the best origin story.

I refute that. Garruk has the best origin story, and if you're willing to dig up the comics on the clunky buggy nightmare world of the Mothership's article archive, its definitely worth a read. Dude had the guy who killed his father devoured by a wurm. It was metal. I will give that Jace has the best origin story in Origins, but that's not really saying much for the others.

But yeah, there's a difference between being a popular character and being a popular card. Chandra, for example, is a pretty popular character. They haven't abandoned her yet like they did with the other two out of the Lorwyn 5, and hell, they tried to base M14 all around her. But ask a bunch of players who don't read the novels, skip all the cutscenes in DotP, and scroll to the bottom of Uncharted Realms just to see the spoiler card, and their opinion will probably vary from indifference to dislike, because she's never been a particularly powerful or influential card.

Sure, Nissa's a popular card now, because she's halfway decent. But watch her get a Liliana of the Dark Realms treatment and you'll see interest wane pretty quickly. Concerning the character, just about everyone at the LGS I work at, from our 30-something regular drafters to the random walk-in customers to our 15-and-under standard crowd, from our die-hard Spikes to our fervent lore-junkies, has either expressed a dislike in her reboot or has given me the "I only really care about the card" thing. And from a creative design perspective, disinterest in the flavor is just as bad as dislike. It's a sort of reverse Gerrard Capashen syndrome, where instead of a weak card failing to hold up a strong character, you see the inverse of that.

Honestly, if you're going to redo a character's entire backstory, try to make your new vision of them a little deeper than "Make her the cute elf chick from Dragon Age 2."

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-13 4:25 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-15 5:03 am
Age: Dragon
DarksteelElephant wrote:
The thing about Jace is that most Magic players don't care about the story, so they basically liked him because he was the best card. The people who cared about the story disliked him for a long time, though now he is more popular, having IMO the best origin story.


Have you never heard Maro point out that Jace was the most popular walker out of the Lorwyin five, despite NOT being the strongest? (Garruk is probably the strongest out of them.)

I think one thing Jace has going for him is from an art perspective, he's relateable. The cast of planeswalkers is actually pretty diverse, with Jace being the only caucasian male - which last time I checked was the majority of MtG players. He's also a smart, arrogant asshole which most MtG players like imagining themselves as. (One we replace arrogant asshole with "witty, clever, always has a good comeback, smarter then the person he's talking to.")

That being said, the fact that so many Jaces have been good cards certainly doesn't hurt is popularity, but that's not the only factor behind it.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-13 11:18 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
sir squab wrote:
The cast of planeswalkers is actually pretty diverse, with Jace being the only caucasian male - which last time I checked was the majority of MtG players. He's also a smart, arrogant asshole which most MtG players like imagining themselves as. (One we replace arrogant asshole with "witty, clever, always has a good comeback, smarter then the person he's talking to.")

Garruk is also a white boy, but is totally a pea-brained jock.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-14 12:05 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
And Gideon is, of course, comblinasian.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-14 12:39 am 
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Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
They haven't abandoned her yet like they did with the other two out of the Lorwyn 5

Which of the Llorwyn walkers have been abandoned?

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-14 2:06 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
They haven't abandoned her yet like they did with the other two out of the Lorwyn 5

Which of the Llorwyn walkers have been abandoned?

Garruk and Ajani have, for the time being, been set aside in favor of Nissa and Gideon as the primary "face" of their repsective colors. That is not to say we won't be seeing them again; I am certain we will, so the word "abandoned" might be premature or just a tad hyperbolic, but for the immediate future at least, it is applicable.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-14 2:06 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
They haven't abandoned her yet like they did with the other two out of the Lorwyn 5

Which of the Llorwyn walkers have been abandoned?

Ajani and Garruk. Abandoned is probably too strong a word, but they certainly have (at least temporarily) lost the limelight to Gid and Nissa.

Ajani got sidelined because they rushed through his story a bit too fast in Alara, and the problem was that since his story was a very personal one, he didn't really have a stake in anyone else's story. We see him in Theros because he's "cool with Elspeth" or something, but aside from that supporting role, we only ever see him in core sets after alara. We might see more of him later on down the line, when they shift the focus to Bolas for that part of the Planar War arc, but that might not be for a minute yet.

Garruk though, they decided to turn evil. While it's interesting what they're doing with him, he can't exactly be a flagship walker while being a supervillain. After all, he beat up Jace and Jace's girlfriend Liliana. Plus he said Jace's ice cream swirly robe thing looked stupid. Not cool.
crokaycete wrote:
And Gideon is, of course, comblinasian.

I liked Gideon a lot better when he looked like Triple H.

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Bladewing the Risen - MTG: Blood Dragon - OST by Powerglove
Dosan the Falling Leaf - Mono-Green Accelerator
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Feed it to Vish
Toshiro Umezawa - Budget Creatureless
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher - Combo Jund
Marath, Will of the Wild - Beast-Mode Tribal
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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-14 3:30 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
crokaycete wrote:
And Gideon is, of course, comblinasian.

I liked Gideon a lot better when he looked like Triple H.


Gideon has been my favorite walker since his introduction. Seeing the changes to Gideon's portrayal has given me a taste of why under-represented people need to have characters that look like them in media to truly identify with them. The cognitive dissonance I experienced when the new spoiler art started coming out and Gideon wasn't just another white guy with long hair was really disconcerting and embarrassing because I suddenly felt less connected to the character.

When I sat down and thought about it, I got over it, but my knee jerk reaction was definitely embarrassing. :facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-14 4:34 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
I liked Gideon a lot better when he looked like Triple H.

Well, he looks like The Rock now, so it is basically a lateral move. After all, we know Dwayne Johnson can play a convincing Greek, right?


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