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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 4:13 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Where does G fit in with casting instants? he's pretty solidly in the right color pie but even if not, he would fit in any other color better than in green. Green is very much a creatures matters color which is as far away from Noyan as you can get.

Animating lands is about as traditional a green ability as you can get, dating back to Living Lands in Alpha. There are more green spells that do it than nongreen ones, and that includes two cycles of enchantments counting at 1:4.

You're right that he doesn't fit monoG, but the only reason he works as UW is because the Awaken mechanic allows for color pie bleed in this set. In a vacuum, he should probably be RG, UG, or RUG. That isn't what we got, though. It wouldn't irritate me if UG actually had generals that weren't obnoxiously busted (Edric, Momir, Zegana) or boringly linear (Kruphix, Kraj, Vorel).


And Kormus Bell was in Alpha as well putting it solidly in colorless. Animating lands is not and never has been a green ability. The first "man land" was an "artifact" and the first animated lands that tapped for colored mana were in all five colors at once. The Awaken mechanic is in all five colors. There is no "color pie bleed" with this mechanic. The fact that the "ramp" color has a few extra land animating cards is not overly relevant.

Noyan is solidly a control general. He does absolutely nothing in a creature heavy deck which is what green's focus promotes. As far as control goes, UW or BU are king. There's more land relevant cards in white than in black so he fits far better in UW. Having a G legend that cares about casting instants is far more of a color pie snafu than having a colorless ability on a control general.

You also have to keep in mind he's a merfolk. There are some GU merfolk but 0 G merfolk. There are several W merfolk and several WU merfolk. There are also more BU merfolk... Green is the last color Noyan would fit in.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 4:55 am 
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Worth noting the argument for Noya being green was "instead of a Blue and WHITE creature, he's a Blue and GREEN creature."

As for animating lands, it's primarily a green thing. All colours can get it - the original Zendikar block had ally coloured manlands and a colorless one, this block is giving out enemy coloured ones. For the past several years, spells that animate lands have been mostly green followed by red.

As for caring about instants/sorceries? Red/blue are the primary colours that care about those, with white behind them.

I think one the main reasons for wanting Noyan to be green is all the land search green has - if you're animating a bunch of lands, you probably want to have a bunch of lands to animate in the first place.

Now that I think about it, Red probably has the biggest overlap between "has cards that animate lands" and "cares about instants/sorceries."

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 5:24 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Animating lands is as green as flying is not. Sometimes that guideline will be disregarded, typically for the sake of a cycle or a set-specific mechanic. That is the definition of color pie bleed.

Epsilon wrote:
The fact that the "ramp" color has a few extra land animating cards is not overly relevant.
More than every other color combined is not "a few." Prior to BFZ, here are your land animating spells (until EOT marked with *).

Full cycles (3 for each color) Genjus (1 each mono+Genju of the Realm), Zendikons

White (0) nothing outside of a cycle

Blue (3) Balduvian Conjurer*, Balduvian Frostwaker, Hydroform* (UG),

Black (2) Kormus Bell (technically not black, so put it in the colorless count if you want), Woodwraith Corrupter (BG)

Red (6) Awaken the Ancient, Ignition Team*, Koth*, Siege of Towers, Skarrg Guildmage* (RG), Natural Emergence (RG)

Green (29) Animate Land*, Awakener Druid, Hydroform* (UG), Kamahl*, Lifespark Spellbomb* (technically not green, but requires {G} to do its thing), Liege of the Tangle, Living Terrain, Nissa Worldwaker, Quirion Dryad, Skarrg Guildmage* (RG), Soilshaper*, Spike Tiller, Vastwood Animist*, Verdant Touch, Vivify*, Woodwraith Corrupter (BG), Ambush Commander, Anthousa*, Life*, Hunting Wilds, Jolrael, Living Lands, Living Plane, Natural Affinity*, Natural Emergence (RG), Nature's Revolt, Nissa Sage Animist, Rude Awakening*, Thelonite Druid*

Colorless (1) Mishra's Groundbreaker

If you want to throw lands that animate themselves into the mix, green no longer beats all other colors combined, but it is still far and away the individual leader heading in to BFZ. There are the two land cycles (mono and allied) that are across the colors evenly. Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Stalking Stones, Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, and Dread Statuary are the other nongreen ones. Other than that you have Nantuko Monastery, Svogthos, and Dryad Arbor for noncycle. That is +6 to Green's Count, +4 to White and Black, +3 to Red and Blue, and +6 to Colorless.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 5:27 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
sir squab wrote:
I think one the main reasons for wanting Noyan to be green is all the land search green has - if you're animating a bunch of lands, you probably want to have a bunch of lands to animate in the first place.

The starting place for the deck would probably be cantrips and land ramp. Coming at me with UG Noyan down and GUUU open? Hope your dude can rumble with a 9/9 forest.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 5:32 am 
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And with this, and blue probably being the primary "spell" colour (with red a close second), we see the argument for him being U/G over U/W.

It also fits his flavour text better - he's rousing the land's fury, which fits green the most, followed by red.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 5:38 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Epsilon wrote:
And Kormus Bell was in Alpha as well putting it solidly in colorless. Animating lands is not and never has been a green ability. The first "man land" was an "artifact" and the first animated lands that tapped for colored mana were in all five colors at once. The Awaken mechanic is in all five colors. There is no "color pie bleed" with this mechanic. The fact that the "ramp" color has a few extra land animating cards is not overly relevant.

For the record, pretty much everyone in the WotC design team has spoken about how you shouldn't use cards from old-school Magic sets (ABUR, etc.) to establish or justify the color pie. I mean, this was an age where hydras were squarely in red, blue got discard and burn spells, white had firebreathing, and green got Index and counterspells.
sir squab wrote:
Worth noting the argument for Noya being green was "instead of a Blue and WHITE creature, he's a Blue and GREEN creature."

This is kind of the root of the annoyance for me. He's blue-white, but he doesn't FEEL white. I don't really feel like they justified tossing white in his cost. Sure, awaken is in every color in BFZ, but that just means that they could get away with making him mono-blue. I mean, even if they did something dumb like give him vigilance or something, that would still be preferable to me than slapping on another arbitrary color "just cause we can".

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Bladewing the Risen - MTG: Blood Dragon - OST by Powerglove
Dosan the Falling Leaf - Mono-Green Accelerator
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Feed it to Vish
Toshiro Umezawa - Budget Creatureless
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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 7:01 am 
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The closest I've got is "he used to calm down the land when it animated into a manland and went on a rampage, which is W, so somehow he's still W despite that now he does the opposite and pisses off the land to animate it into a manland to fight eldrazi, and uh W is the color of fighting eldrazi especially since no eldrazi are W?

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-09 7:10 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
"Ally" on the type line, and allies can be any color (particularly white), ipso facto WHITE!


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-10 4:13 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
In BFZ, there is 1 Green, 1 Red, 3 Black, 6 White and 6 Blue Awaken spells. Which colors best support the awaken general? This is really as far as the "color pie" argument needs to go.


In all of Magic, Green and Black has just over 250 instant spells. Red has just over 300 and White and Blue both have over 400. Which colors best support the spells matter general?

In all of Magic, Green has 5 cards that interact with "nonland" cards (aka can be used on permanents that aren't your animated lands and thus lead to non-symmetrical board wipes/states). White has 23 and blue has over 50.

What does White have that specifically benefits an animated lands strategy? Terra Eternal, Planar Birth, Second Sunrise, Sacred Ground, Mirrorweave, etc...

What does green have that benefits an animated lands strategy? Some ramp spells kinda help replace any dead lands... some graveyard to hand recursion... I guess you could animate them a second time to add redundancy and make them bigger than 0/0s but lose the haste or just become 0/0s again when you cast another spell. In other words, greens history of animating lands is completely irrelevant because those effects do not work with Noyan. Noyan will time stamp overwrite the other effect and even with Living Lands out your animated guys will be 0/0 with counters.

You can argue that green is more "fitting" cause it deals with lands more but awaken is a UW mechanic with a small splash in other colors and Zendikar is a five color set... All colors deal with lands in Zendikar. Control is far more of a white playstyle and White has far more interesting options for a land animate deck compared to green. Using Noyan as GU would be exactly the same as other GU generals. Ramp and draw into fatties except the fatties are your lands.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-10 7:59 am 
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Age: Dragon
Location: Durham, England
Epsilon wrote:
What does green have that benefits an animated lands strategy? Some ramp spells kinda help replace any dead lands... some graveyard to hand recursion... I guess you could animate them a second time to add redundancy and make them bigger than 0/0s but lose the haste or just become 0/0s again when you cast another spell. In other words, greens history of animating lands is completely irrelevant because those effects do not work with Noyan. Noyan will time stamp overwrite the other effect and even with Living Lands out your animated guys will be 0/0 with counters.


Earth Surge, the card that raises more questions, key questions, for me than any other.
Why was it printed?
Why was it printed in Ravnica block?
Who designed it?
Which developer thought it needed to be 4 mana?
Why did they think it needed to be 4 mana?
How come I'm the only player who seems to remember its existence?

Awaken's severe lack of representation in green, as well as the Noyan Dar is in the wrong colours argument are because green has several cards like Earth Surge and a long history of caring about lands, creatures and land creatures. Even if that history is just entrenched in the flavour that creatures and lands are green's tea and biscuits. A spell slinging simic deck would be new and interesting for a simic commander deck (as they're usually just big dudes, mana and card draw OR counter shenanigans with Kraj and Vorel), as it would finally have a commander it could use as its only/primary win condition but instead we have an Azorius commander who would arguably be better off replaced by one of their other "win condition" type commanders (such as Ojutai).

Awaken being unrepresented by green is my biggest complaint about this set, Zendikar (as shown by the Soul of Zendikar) is a very green plane and awaken is the magic of the plane itself. Yet green is exploiting the land of zendikar with landfall, supporting the Eldrazi, hanging about as one of the allies colours and possibility for awesome cards replaced with the Simic draft archetype, converge.

Awaken is stuck in Azorius colours and strangely black as tertiary, so what's Nissa supposed to do?

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I had a long hiatus, removed some decks, but I still love lands.
Tatyova, Benthic Druid - Exploring Brawl
Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle - Work in Progress
Yasova Dragonclaw - Yasova Tinyclaw/Slightly-less-tinyclaw
Kruphix, God of Horizons - That Which Was Taken by Kruphix
Selvala, Explorer Returned - Blackless dredge
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Monogreen Superfriends
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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-10 10:20 am 
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Ski Gloves wrote:
Awaken is stuck in Azorius colours and strangely black as tertiary, so what's Nissa supposed to do?


Whine, be an annoying hippie, monologue, have weird thoughts about Ashaya, and overall make you wish the story would just get back to Sorin.

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-10 10:46 am 

Joined: 2013-Sep-05 6:26 am
Age: Drake
Ski Gloves wrote:
How come I'm the only player who seems to remember its existence?

I remember Earth Surge. It's my secret hope to someday use it and Jolrael to have my lands die in a blaze of glory, with Titania, Protector of Argoth there to make a swarm of Elementals. I'd have Overlaid Terrain in the deck as well.

Anti-ramp green. It'll be terrible, but also wonderful.


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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-10 12:33 pm 
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Location: Atlanta, GA
DarksteelElephant wrote:
Ski Gloves wrote:
Awaken is stuck in Azorius colours and strangely black as tertiary, so what's Nissa supposed to do?


Whine, be an annoying hippie, monologue, have weird thoughts about Ashaya, and overall make you wish the story would just get back to Sorin.

Elves, man. Ugh. Magic needs more Viashino planeswalkers. Or maybe a dwarf.

I blame Origins. Retconning Nissa to make her more likable and marketable seemed to backfire hard. At least she was an interesting character back when she was a bull-headed racist.

And where the hell is Tibalt?

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Bladewing the Risen - MTG: Blood Dragon - OST by Powerglove
Dosan the Falling Leaf - Mono-Green Accelerator
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Feed it to Vish
Toshiro Umezawa - Budget Creatureless
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher - Combo Jund
Marath, Will of the Wild - Beast-Mode Tribal
Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Mortal Combat Dredge
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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-10 6:49 pm 
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What evidence do you have that it backfired? Beyond a few like-minded entrenched MTG players disliking her, do you have actual evidence that the focus directed towards Nissa has backfired?

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 Post subject: Re: House rule generals
AgePosted: 2015-Oct-11 2:21 am 
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sir squab wrote:
What evidence do you have that it backfired? Beyond a few like-minded entrenched MTG players disliking her, do you have actual evidence that the focus directed towards Nissa has backfired?


I for one like the new Nissa. She's next to Kiora as my favourite Planeswalker, though I agree that the retcon was a bad idea. Making her grow as a character to trust other races and have her become more accepting of other races as the Zendikari ally together to fight the Eldrazi? It would've made for a much more natural character growth and it wouldn't have been bad.

The Planeswalker I hate most? Hilariously, Sorin Markov. The dude is in the location of things happening, yet never actually did anything for any of them. Watched Tarkir be destroyed, watched the Eldrazi while Nahiri and Ugin actually did something about it, hell all he did for his own plane is make Avacyn and play with Tybalt.

... This thread has derailed hilariously.

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I had a long hiatus, removed some decks, but I still love lands.
Tatyova, Benthic Druid - Exploring Brawl
Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle - Work in Progress
Yasova Dragonclaw - Yasova Tinyclaw/Slightly-less-tinyclaw
Kruphix, God of Horizons - That Which Was Taken by Kruphix
Selvala, Explorer Returned - Blackless dredge
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Monogreen Superfriends
Pharika, God of Affliction - Hemlock


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