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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-28 11:11 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
"Oh, Erayo is your general?"
"Yes."
"Do you have Arcane Lab in your deck?"
"Maybe."
The other player then refuses to play against me.

I count it as a win, and it seems ridiculous to me.

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Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


Last edited by RobPro on 2009-Jan-28 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-28 12:50 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
This topic was split off from another, about rediculous/huge wins that people have seen in EDH

<Me> Is your general Zur?
<Player 2> Yes
<Player 3> Do you have Vanishing and necropotence?
<Player 2> Yes

Players 3, 4 and I avoided having to play against #2 and enjoyed a great three player game. I considered this a win :)

G

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Last edited by Genomancer on 2009-Jan-29 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-28 6:21 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
RobPro wrote:
"Oh, Erayo is your general?"
"Yes."
"Do you have Arcane Lab in your deck?"
"Maybe."
The other player then refuses to play against me.

I count it as a win, and it seems ridiculous to me.


Similarly, I will refuse to play against a Niv-Mizzet player with either Ophidian Eye or Curiousity in their deck.

A refusal to play is NOT the same as a concession. The game hasn't started yet. So don't go jerking yourself off because you were clever enough to put an obvious two-card automatic win condition in your deck when one half always starts in your "hand", so to speak.

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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-28 6:47 pm 
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Philatio wrote:
RobPro wrote:
"Oh, Erayo is your general?"
"Yes."
"Do you have Arcane Lab in your deck?"
"Maybe."
The other player then refuses to play against me.

I count it as a win, and it seems ridiculous to me.


Similarly, I will refuse to play against a Niv-Mizzet player with either Ophidian Eye or Curiousity in their deck.

A refusal to play is NOT the same as a concession. The game hasn't started yet. So don't go jerking yourself off because you were clever enough to put an obvious two-card automatic win condition in your deck when one half always starts in your "hand", so to speak.


I think it's poor sportsmanship to refuse to play a game due to a 1 in 100 combo. I even offered to use another blue legend as my General, but the person refused to play unless I would remove Erayo and Arcane Lab from the deck. I don't ask people to change their decks for me, so don't ask me to change my deck for you (without ever playing a game against me first).

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Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 10:05 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
RobPro wrote:
I don't ask people to change their decks for me


That's where you're wrong. In most social games, people have built their decks under the assumption that others won't abuse degenerate General combos like this... so by playing it, you are implicitly saying they must change their deck or suffer an unfair advantage because you don't respect the social rules.

And they're not asking you to change yours... they're just saying they won't play against it. In a social game, that's their perogative. If you think that they're *implicitly* telling you to change your deck so they'll play against you... you're right. Just like you're implicitly telling them to.

G



PS: Of course, in an "untrusted" game (like a tournament) things are different... there are no such assumptions about opponents "playing fair" when they build their deck. So it's up to each player to change their deck to adapt... and that's why we're testing sideboards for those environments.

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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 10:23 am 
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Genomancer wrote:

PS: Of course, in an "untrusted" game (like a tournament) things are different... there are no such assumptions about opponents "playing fair" when they build their deck. So it's up to each player to change their deck to adapt... and that's why we're testing sideboards for those environments.


I believe it's fair unless it's banned. That's the reason for having banned cards, right? I don't think I'm wrong in that assumption.

Everybody tries to run a "good" combo or two in their deck, I fail to see how this combo, that could "win" the game in a turn, is any different than any other combo that can win the game in a turn. I'm not trying to nitpick, but I do believe it's poor sportsmanship to refuse to play against someone because it's hard to deal with being unable to play spells. There are a fair amount of ways to get around this lock, and it's not too unreasonable to run some of them (as they are all useful cards anyways).

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Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 10:41 am 
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Joined: 2008-Jul-10 8:46 am
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RobPro wrote:
...but I do believe it's poor sportsmanship to refuse to play against someone because it's hard to deal with being unable to play spells...


It's poor sportsmanship to not play a game if they foresee not having fun? Isn't it their choice to play a game in the first place? Casual is casual and you can't go forcing people to play you unless they want to play you.

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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 10:48 am 
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I don't recall forcing anyone to play a game. I only posted in this thread that it's ridiculous to refuse to play against someone because they have two cards in their deck to make it difficult for whoever plays against them to win.

I've said all I had to say on this subject, so let's get this thread back on track. If you have any other comments for me you can send them in PMs.

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My decks:
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 10:51 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
RobPro wrote:
let's get this thread back on track. If you have any other comments for me you can send them in PMs.


Good point, but it might be an interesting discussion to continue so I've split the relevant posts off into a separate thread.

G


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 11:47 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I guess it's all really up to what you consider a win, or a fun time.

Using your example. You’ve got a tourney tuned edh deck, great but that's not what some folks play the format for.

You consider it a win to have the deck if folks won't play you. The question is you having a good time not playing magic? If so then good on you, if you're getting left out of games and sitting around watching other folks play magic, to me that isn't a good time.

I've got a few levels of EDH decks some for fun (kami of the crescent moon general), some for a bit more serious (I’ve got a braids deck that mostly sits in a box).

My goal when I show up to play magic cards, is to have a fun time, play some cards, then go home, if that's not why you play magic then good on yah.

Play (or don't play) however you like, in the end it's your free time you're burning.


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 12:18 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Jun-20 10:15 pm
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the generals that everyone complains about:
Arcum Dagsson - Only problematic when Mishra's Workshop makes its appearance (which should be banned if Library is imo)
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant - Many Seal-effects have been maindecked because of this guy, not too straining.
Jhoira of the Ghitu - Obliterate/Decree followed by dragons, draws entire table's aggro and shortly dies before suspended cards resolve.
Rafiq of the Many - Almost too easy to build around, turns even the smallest threat into a gamewinner, owning player surprised when Rafiq gets targeted for removal.
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - Despite being banned, our group allowed him to be built and we at a loss for why he is even banned. We built elft ball and mana ramp and neither were effective.
Zur the Enchanter - Too many wrath-effects in the meta to allow him to go unchecked.

my thoughts, none of the aforementioned generals are too broken to worry about but using them does show a lack of deviation from the norm (for instance, you will never see an erayo deck without arcane lab or a zur deck without diplomatic immunity)

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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 1:30 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
Honestly, I feel a reaction like "Oh...you're playing XXX as your general? I refuse to play if you're playing XXX cards as well!" is a bit over-reactional. That's a player missing the point of the format. It's not easy to piece together a 100-card deck, and having someone attack it blindly is pretty harsh.

That said, the player who sits down to a "social" or "fun" game with the intention of chain-gunning a game-ending combo at top speed is equally wrong. As a player, you need to gauge your environment.

For instance, at the upcoming Conflux prerelease, a large group of us usually get together for the weekend. EDH gets played quite a bit, in various player combinations. I'll be bringing:

Sharuum - My "competetive" deck. Uses a ton of accel and several very abusable game-winning combos.

Intet, Nicol Bolas - My "social" decks. Intet is the stronger of the two, and both use some pretty strong cards and interactions, but both are aimed at interacting in a long group game.

From experience, I will simply not sit down with Sharuum (my fave of the bunch, btw) in the big group game that will occur later on back at the house. It totally sucks to take the time to gather 5 or 6 players, all shuffle up, start to play, and then have the game end in five minutes with all players losing to one quick combo. It's a quick way to make people decide they'd rather do anything else.

Now, while we're waiting for the next round to start during the day, we'll often play some 1v1 games. Sharuum? Absolutely. The same goes for any larger games that start when someone suggests we play Predator/Prey, or a "competetive" game. That's the time and the place.

Otherwise? I'll be Intet-ing out Insurrection all night long. ;)

In short, EDH is a fun format. As exciting as it is when you realize you've built a powerhouse, you still need to respect the format and your play-group. But you also need to respect people's right to play a deck of their choosing. If everyone respects everyone, these petty interactions don't ever need to happen.

--->DJ


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 2:44 pm 
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Age: Drake
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I agree with RobPro, and that decks like that are completely fair within the rules and people should not refuse to play the deck simply because it has a two card combo.
There are answers to these things, and the fact that you KNOW your opponent's plan means you are better suited to deal with it.
If you play counters, you know what to counter.
If you play removal, you know what to destroy.
It's a distinct advantage.

But on a side note, this is a perfect reason for more groups to try the 10 card sideboard.
"Oh, you're being a douche and playing braids? 1 mana removal it is!"
"Oh, Erayo? Well, Seal of Primodium/Cleansing goes in..."

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Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed; Wort, Boggart Auntie; Jhoira of the Ghitu; Multani, Maro-Sorcerer; Rafiq of the Many; Heartless Hidetsugu; Wort, the Raidmother; Braids, Cabal Minion; Vendillion Clique; Captain Sisay;


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 2:45 pm 
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See, I came to the table to have fun myself, and see if my build was viable. It is impossible to playtest a build if nobody will play against you. I played maybe 2-3 games with that deck, neither of which resulted in the Erayo/Lab combo, and then people started refusing to play against me. I don't know how efficient my build is because I was unable to get that far into any games. I wanted to try it in a 3+ player game to see how feasible it was to get the combo out with the deck I was running... I have a pretty decent eye for cards that help, but like I said I wasn't able to play more than a handful of games with it.

I think it's more than reasonable on my part to call it poor sportsmanship. I consider it a win simply out of frustration. There are people running Niv-Mizzet, Doran, Karn, etc. at this place, yet for some reason my deck is to "unbalanced."

But like I said earlier, if Erayo or whatever is considered too powerful, then it should be banned. Since it's not, you should at least -try- a game against me. I like playing against people using better, faster, or more consistent decks than what I run so I can see how to improve, and I don't see how anyone else could fail to learn more. You know the big weakness of an Erayo/Lab deck? No (efficient) way to get cards back from the graveyard, or ways in Mono-U to tutor for it! If you can kill the Lab, or I don't draw it in my opening hand, there's a pretty good chance you won't see it that game. I don't see anything wrong with my philosophy here.

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Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


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AgePosted: 2009-Jan-29 6:19 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
:P

Perhaps try deodorant.

Nah, the point of the matter is that erayo on its own is a lock in card efficiency.

so let me get this right I've got to burn a card + mana to even cast a spell, then burn another card + mana to get a counter out of your hand, then if someone else wants to help run a spell though they have to burn an instant + the counter.

A very effective general card economy wise and not a lot of fun to play against.

There are answers to every magic card and lock out there, are the folks that you're not playing with even able to come up with those cards, or are they all budget beater running on some lorwyn cards decks?

In a tourney folks have to expect silliness like erayo, in a casual group folks get to decide how they spend there time, as it is there time.

There are folks that I won't play (other than in a tourney) because of clashes of personality, perhaps that's more the issue than the combo deck.

Group / social magic is as much about the cards as it is about the folks sitting around the table.

I don't know you, can't judge you, don't really care, but you get to make a choice, that choice is to either brag about having a deck that your local play group won't play against (and not get to actually play magic), or work out your issues with your local play group (if you even really want to play with them).


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