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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-01 11:32 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
My first reaction was to just split the formats, let cEDH players have their own banlist and be done with it. I'm not so sure about that after reading this and other threads the last couple of weeks.

To me it looks like, even though the play style and deck building philosophy differs quite a lot, minimal changes to the ban list can be enough.

PE was ruining casual play, so it needed to get banned. If Flash Hulk is too dominant in cEDH, ban Flash or reban Hulk. As a casual player, I have no problem a card gets banned in casual because it causes problems in cEDH (most kitchen table groups won't even mind if you still use Hulk, as long as you're not fetching combo pieces).

EDH players should have the courtesy to accept some extra bans when cards are wrecking cEDH, and cEDH players should accept bans for the same reason. The RC and CAG should find usefull contacts within the cEDH community to discuss the health of the format, and act when problem cards arise, even when they do not pose a problem in casual play.

I will now go and prepare my acceptance speech for the incoming Nobel Peace Award, afterwards I will be available for parties and receptions. I like Scotch.


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-02 1:53 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I think I wrote everything I wanted to in the nexus thread.

I think more generally:

Format splitting would be bad for cEDH players. They'd have less people to play against, essentially. Only, the format is already informally split. cEDH players say they don't want to pubstomp (in my experience, they do, but that's neither here nor there) and 'regular' EDH players don't want to play in games they don't consider fun.

Second, because of that, people already decline games. There are people at my LGS I decline to play with, because they want a different game than I do. They happen to reside closer to the principles of cEDH.

At this point, I think it's just whinging about the ban list. Flash is broken, Partners are problematic, Paradox Engine was fine, etc. But, frankly, I can't bring myself to care. I, and many of the people I play with, were playing EDH before it was recognized by WotC. I played EDH *expressly* because it was not competitive, stress free, casual and multiplayer. I once joked on MTGsalvation that I played EDH because I wanted to "play with ALL my cards, ALL my friends, ALL at the same time".

None of the problems with cEDH is 'traditional' EDH player's fault. This format wasn't built for robust competition. I hope it never gets reconstructed to be so.

The best analogy I've come up with is someone buying a construction-grade nailgun and trying to go duck hunting with it. When they find out it's not built for accuracy and that they're missing all the ducks, they go to deWalt or whatever nailgun manufacturer they bought from and complain about the accuracy of the nailguns at 500 meters.

deWalt *should* respond: "It's a fucking nailgun you dipshit. You'll get better results with a hunting rifle."

At this point, when a cEDH forum poster says/writes "The format has grown beyond that" or "Flash is so bonkers it should be banned" all I can read/hear is "I want to shoot ducks with my nailgun, no matter how bad an idea it is."

Honestly, I don't believe competitive banlist concern posts should even merit a response. People are just going to have to find out that some things just aren't for them.

Edit to add: I applaud Sheldon for even engaging with cEDH players at all. The level of vitriol is more than I would be willing to negotiate. When the fourth post in your olive-branch-engagement-thread is from a user called "sheldonshouldretire" and you get death threats, I don't know what. Not only are they not the aggrieved party as nailgun-duck-hunters, but most of their representatives have schoolyard bully attitudes to discussion and debate.

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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-02 2:15 am 

Joined: 2019-Aug-01 4:00 am
Age: Wyvern
Sinis wrote:
I think I wrote everything I wanted to in the nexus thread.

I think more generally:

Format splitting would be bad for cEDH players. They'd have less people to play against, essentially. Only, the format is already informally split. cEDH players say they don't want to pubstomp (in my experience, they do, but that's neither here nor there) and 'regular' EDH players don't want to play in games they don't consider fun.

Second, because of that, people already decline games. There are people at my LGS I decline to play with, because they want a different game than I do. They happen to reside closer to the principles of cEDH.

At this point, I think it's just whinging about the ban list. Flash is broken, Partners are problematic, Paradox Engine was fine, etc. But, frankly, I can't bring myself to care. I, and many of the people I play with, were playing EDH before it was recognized by WotC. I played EDH *expressly* because it was not competitive, stress free, casual and multiplayer. I once joked on MTGsalvation that I played EDH because I wanted to "play with ALL my cards, ALL my friends, ALL at the same time".

None of the problems with cEDH is 'traditional' EDH player's fault. This format wasn't built for robust competition. I hope it never gets reconstructed to be so.

The best analogy I've come up with is someone buying a construction-grade nailgun and trying to go duck hunting with it. When they find out it's not built for accuracy and that they're missing all the ducks, they go to deWalt or whatever nailgun manufacturer they bought from and complain about the accuracy of the nailguns at 500 meters.

deWalt *should* respond: "It's a fucking nailgun you dipshit. You'll get better results with a hunting rifle."

At this point, when a cEDH forum poster says/writes "The format has grown beyond that" or "Flash is so bonkers it should be banned" all I can read/hear is "I want to shoot ducks with my nailgun, no matter how bad an idea it is."

Honestly, I don't believe competitive banlist concern posts should even merit a response. People are just going to have to find out that some things just aren't for them.

Edit to add: I applaud Sheldon for even engaging with cEDH players at all. The level of vitriol is more than I would be willing to negotiate. When the fourth post in your olive-branch-engagement-thread is from a user called "sheldonshouldretire" and you get death threats, I don't know what. Not only are they not the aggrieved party as nailgun-duck-hunters, but most of their representatives have schoolyard bully attitudes to discussion and debate.


You say that cEDH shouldn’t have its own format, but then you give a bunch of examples of exactly why it NEEDS its own format. You are a self absorbed pretentious and condescending piece of trash. People like you sicken me.


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-02 2:46 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
PrimeTime4Life wrote:
You say that cEDH shouldn’t have its own format, but then you give a bunch of examples of exactly why it NEEDS its own format.


1. I never wrote "cEDH shouldn't have its own format". I only wrote (effectively) "cEDH should stop squatting in EDH".

2. You want your own format? Go make your own format. I won't stop you. Just stop squatting in mine.

3. Is 2 too much work? Go play duel commander. It has its own established competition-oriented banlist, stretching back to 2010. http://www.duelcommander.com/

Quote:
You are a self absorbed pretentious and condescending piece of trash. People like you sicken me.


Gold star.

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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-02 2:57 am 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Sinis wrote:
PrimeTime4Life wrote:
You say that cEDH shouldn’t have its own format, but then you give a bunch of examples of exactly why it NEEDS its own format.


1. I never wrote "cEDH shouldn't have its own format". I only wrote (effectively) "cEDH should stop squatting in EDH".

2. You want your own format? Go make your own format. I won't stop you. Just stop squatting in mine.

3. Is 2 too much work? Go play duel commander. It has its own established competition-oriented banlist, stretching back to 2010. http://www.duelcommander.com/

Quote:
You are a self absorbed pretentious and condescending piece of trash. People like you sicken me.


Gold star.


I applaud your patience to debate, but please, don't feed the trolls, or they become domesticated...


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-02 3:48 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nigerian Prince wrote:
I applaud your patience to debate, but please, don't feed the trolls, or they become domesticated...


I mean, sometimes they realize that they can be better and actually start contributing. This particular troll actually has posted at least once where it was relevant and thoughtful so I know that they can. They just got to hit puberty, hopefully soon, so that they stop and realize that there are consquences and people respond better to you when you are kind, or at the very least not a jerk.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-02 4:12 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
From reading some of this stuff about cEDH -- My feeling is that they should have a slight change... saaay, starting at 35 life.

That leads (slightly) less life, so combo/control decks have slightly less time to establish themselves or find what they need to win/control the game.

It also, more importantly, lets people start off with something as simple as "how much life are we starting with, 35 or 40?" and then let everyone realize what kind of game is going to happen. If cEDH starts with differing life total, then anyone 'pubstomping' is intentionally doing it, while those who have proper ideas of only playing 'competitive' decks with others of similar mind, have a clear signal to tell one way or another if this game will be that type or not.


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-13 6:35 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Carthain wrote:
From reading some of this stuff about cEDH -- My feeling is that they should have a slight change... saaay, starting at 35 life.

That leads (slightly) less life, so combo/control decks have slightly less time to establish themselves or find what they need to win/control the game.
I read this a week ago, and I spent some time thinking about it.

What's actually going on here, is that you're expecting the people to essentially ask "are we playing cEDH" in coded language. Which is fine, and I appreciate the simplicity of 5-life making a material difference to the kind of game you want to play.

But, I also think that we're doing what is essentially a format split with extra steps. By asking "are we playing with 35 life", I think you're really asking "are we going to not play by established EDH rules". They may as well ask "Is Flash legal in this game?", which would be much more conducive to a good cEDH play experience.

This has been a huge portion of the argument on mtgnexus. The cEDH philosophy of optimization within official constraints - if you take that at face value - precludes the idea of playing with a slightly different life total in the same way that it precludes playing with an unofficial ban list. More than anything, I've seen cEDH players complain that they were not kept in mind for the banlist, which is something that we said we wouldn't do, and that I don't think we should ever do.

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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-13 7:03 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
More than anything, I've seen cEDH players complain that they were not kept in mind for the banlist, which is something that we said we wouldn't do, and that I don't think we should ever do.

I agree with you on that.

It's like they've taken a McDonald's Play Place, and are trying to use it as a skate park. So when we do something like put fabric along some edges which makes grinding harder so there's less moves they can make in it, they complain -- but they're the ones who intentionally want to use this Play Place as a Skate Park. It's not intended to be used as such; why should it be adjusted to work for those who want to use it in a way not intended?

Sinis wrote:
But, I also think that we're doing what is essentially a format split with extra steps.
Oh, yes it is. :) But in a codified manner so as to be more obvious to people who may just look around at starting life totals (we all tend to just use some dice around here, or the commander spinners if you have them -- so you can look and see without needing to vocalize your uncertainty.)

I think if the cEDH people are so unhappy because of the Paradox Engine ban, then they can either suck it up, use local houserules, or fork the format if they feel they have enough support to manage that. It may not be what they want, but apparently what they wan't isn't Commander as it is today, so why make a fuss over something that obviously isn't for you, and was never intended for you to use that way?


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-15 10:03 am 
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Splitting the format does nothing, since it doesn't stop anyone from showing up to a "non-cEDH" event with a cEDH deck (or vice versa, but that's obviously less of a problem). The only way to solve that problem would be overlap in the banned lists, and at that point, there's no reason to have two formats.

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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Aug-15 12:18 pm 
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Joined: 2018-Nov-03 1:03 pm
Age: Wyvern
Sheldon wrote:
Splitting the format does nothing, since it doesn't stop anyone from showing up to a "non-cEDH" event with a cEDH deck (or vice versa, but that's obviously less of a problem). The only way to solve that problem would be overlap in the banned lists, and at that point, there's no reason to have two formats.


I'm really happy to see this.

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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-26 3:59 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So I ran into an interesting idea on a FB group, several people think that cEDH is not it's own format instead it is just a high-powered meta. I am sure that this is not new to some people, but I guess I just believed it was 100% different. Now I know that it follows the same ban list as Commander and same multiplayer etc. but to me it just was so different that it had to be it's own format. I guess what is the difference between Vintage and Legacy? The ban/restricted lists right? Maybe I have just spent too much time trying to get into the nitty gritty of the whole what is casual/competitive but kinda felt silly that some people don't believe it is and I guess my world is too black and white?

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-26 12:03 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
So I ran into an interesting idea on a FB group, several people think that cEDH is not it's own format instead it is just a high-powered meta. I am sure that this is not new to some people, but I guess I just believed it was 100% different. Now I know that it follows the same ban list as Commander and same multiplayer etc. but to me it just was so different that it had to be it's own format. I guess what is the difference between Vintage and Legacy? The ban/restricted lists right? Maybe I have just spent too much time trying to get into the nitty gritty of the whole what is casual/competitive but kinda felt silly that some people don't believe it is and I guess my world is too black and white?


What exactly would make it it’s own format? It’s pretty obvious that EDH is played on a casual/competitive spectrum - the 1-10 rating scale that the Command Zone uses and the very idea of a 75% deck are explicitly predicated on it. cEDH decks tend to prioritize different qualities than more casual decks: efficiency, consistency, speed, and raw power over flavor, group dynamics, theme, and commander. But building a cEDH-style deck is really just building an EDH deck after flinging all the guardrails over the cliff.

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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-26 12:28 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
So I ran into an interesting idea on a FB group, several people think that cEDH is not it's own format instead it is just a high-powered meta. I am sure that this is not new to some people, but I guess I just believed it was 100% different. Now I know that it follows the same ban list as Commander and same multiplayer etc. but to me it just was so different that it had to be it's own format. I guess what is the difference between Vintage and Legacy? The ban/restricted lists right? Maybe I have just spent too much time trying to get into the nitty gritty of the whole what is casual/competitive but kinda felt silly that some people don't believe it is and I guess my world is too black and white?


What exactly would make it it’s own format? It’s pretty obvious that EDH is played on a casual/competitive spectrum - the 1-10 rating scale that the Command Zone uses and the very idea of a 75% deck are explicitly predicated on it. cEDH decks tend to prioritize different qualities than more casual decks: efficiency, consistency, speed, and raw power over flavor, group dynamics, theme, and commander. But building a cEDH-style deck is really just building an EDH deck after flinging all the guardrails over the cliff.


I guess I just think that since they turn fun into a zero-sum game (I know gross generalization) and that is so far away from how I define EDH that it just isn't the same thing. It is like t-ball and MLB, yes they both have bats and balls and the bases look the same but you are not getting a 90 mph fastball coming at your 5 year old (I know this can have negative connotations but couldn't think of a better metaphor).

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: cEDH should be it's own format
AgePosted: 2019-Oct-26 11:01 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It’s not a bad metaphor, though I’d prefer little league and MLB, because tee ball does have different rules (you know, the tee). But it think it largely holds. Many people play in little league and enjoy themselves. Fewer play in Varsity, and fewer still in College. A very small number want to play in the most challenging, technical, and competitive environment possible, and play for MLB. But almost everyone who plays in the MLB played in little league, and they’re still playing the same game. That doesn’t mean you get a fair game if you put the Astros up against a little league team.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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