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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-14 1:29 am 

Joined: 2013-Sep-05 6:26 am
Age: Drake
Image

Has blue ever been allowed to return creatures from their graveyard to hand before?


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-14 2:58 am 
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Joined: 2014-Sep-30 6:38 am
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Wilkinsbane wrote:
Image

Has blue ever been allowed to return creatures from their graveyard to hand before?


Yep. It can already return artifact creatures, plus during Shadows it had a couple of zombies it could put directly into play.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-14 3:14 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Wilkinsbane wrote:
Has blue ever been allowed to return creatures from their graveyard to hand before?

There has never been a blue Raise Dead, but this isn't that either. Other blue cards played in this territory:
Back from the Brink
Body Double
Dreams of the Dead (needs some text-changing blue effects to work outside of black/white)
Recall
Reconstruction
Rootwater Diver
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-14 11:14 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
For solidarity/flavor and to not have a pointless keyword-soup hamfisted tacked on colored ability.

I'm putting her in my Saskia for sure, so i don't really care, but i totally get it. Card is designed for total shit imo, but seems fun.


Wait, what? Isn't this why the Fate Reforged generals are so popular?

I don't know, ask the people who like those guys. I like Tasigur and Alesha a lot but i've never played any of the 5 as commanders. Those abilities all make sense, too.

Mr Degradation wrote:
You just don't have the same opportunity cost in building as a gold general, since picking a splash color is way easier. Not to mention how well this card plays with non-Blue Tims.

I don't know to what you are referring in your first statement here

And how well this card plays with non-blue tims is neither here nor there, as i didn't comment on that at all.

Mr Degradation wrote:

Sparkmage? Are you trolling me? Maybe Kamahl, Pit Fighter

Mr Degradation wrote:
Not even to mention how much it speeds up manadorks and has redundancy with Thousand-Year Elixir

Yea, i didn't say anything about that, i don't know who you are talking to here. All i said was i understand why it's unlikable to some people.

Mr Degradation wrote:
I suppose it sortof makes sense in Saskia too, but I think using 1/3 of a card like this is more of a disservice to your deck- where you have better 5 drop plays that dump themselves into blowing up someone's life total (Thundermaw Hellkite, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon and friends)

1/3? What do you mean? I would be using the whole card.
My statement is about me wanting to play that card even though i think it's poorly designed and understand some of the flack it is getting. I didn't even say i don't play those cards, so you're kind of making presumptions and giving me deck advice for what? I just play aggro stuff i like, and i like this poorly designed legend with the keyword soup.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-15 2:11 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Willbender wrote:
Everblight wrote:
Image

Spring: Super Trash. Might be the posterchild for a failed mechanic in this set. Shame about the art, Spring looks just gorgeous. And would be fine if it was its own card.


So, what you're saying is that if the card were just Spring, you'd consider it good. But having a second option on it suddenly makes it a horrible card?

I guess I forgot that good cards suddenly become bad if you give people more abilities without any drawbacks... or something?

Maybe Mind should have been 4 or 5 mana given it can only be played from the graveyard... but yeah. This card is great.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-15 4:30 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
Everblight wrote:
Image

Spring: Super Trash. Might be the posterchild for a failed mechanic in this set. Shame about the art, Spring looks just gorgeous. And would be fine if it was its own card.


So, what you're saying is that if the card were just Spring, you'd consider it good. But having a second option on it suddenly makes it a horrible card?

I guess I forgot that good cards suddenly become bad if you give people more abilities without any drawbacks... or something?


I'm not sure Spring is that good. It's Deep Reconnaissance with Aftermath instead of flashback. Except, Recon is old. At 2G Sorcery, I expect my land fetch to do better than 1 basic land that ETBs tapped. If it were instant, ETBed untapped, got non-basic lands or more than 1 basic (a la cultivate) then it would be something.

The Mind half is just bad. At 4UU Instant speed draw we have Opportunity, Dragonlord's Prerogative and Scour the Library. With other effects we have Overwhelming Intellect

At instant speed "Draw two," Gush (probably an unfair comparison), Mysteries of the Deep, Comparative Analysis, Glimmer of Genius, Inspiration and Weave Fate. This side really needed to either draw more, be cheaper, scry or something to be playable.


As is, it's good for limited only. That doesn't make it a "Bad Card"tm, just not good for EDH unless you are playing "all the ramp" or a deck specifically wants this niche effect.

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Last edited by Treamayne on 2017-Apr-16 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-15 5:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Its power level is well below 9000, but its good.

yeah, it could have been called Rampant//Analysis and been ridiculous, but in a deck that wants to ramp and draw this is playable. I would pick this over any of the general non-mulldrifter draw 2 effects. I dont think it would replace any of my standard ramp spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-16 1:08 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Treamayne wrote:
Mysteries of the Depp,

Will that be the title of the next Pirates of the Carribean movie?

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-16 9:02 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Treamayne wrote:
Mysteries of the Depp,

Will that be the title of the next Pirates of the Carribean movie?


Have Typo, will travel. Thanks...fixed.

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Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-17 8:08 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So apparently Bestow cards stop being creature cards before you cast them (which isn't how I read the bestow section at all)

MTGJudge Tumblr wrote:
Q: Can you cast a bestow creature, for it's bestow cost, (e.g. Eidolon of Hope) using Vizier of the Menagerie?

A:No.

If you’re trying to cast the bestow card from the top of your library, then once you choose to pay the Bestow cost, the bestow card ceases to be a creature card and thus can’t be legally cast from your library as Vizier of the Menagerie’s second ability no longer applies to it.

If you’re casting the bestow card from your hand, it won’t be a creature spell by the time you get to pay its costs and thus Vizier of the Menagerie’s third ability won’t apply to paying for the spell.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-17 8:12 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
So, what's everyone's pick-up list looking like for this set?

I have the 3 PWs for my collection (with extra Liliana for making zombies)
A copy of each Bicycle land

All the Zombie/Bontu stuff:
Bontu the Glorified
Bontu's Monument
Cradle of the Accursed
Dread Wanderer
Embalmer's Tools
Liliana's Mastery
Lord of the Accursed
Plague Belcher

And some goodstuff:
Quarry Hauler
Shefet Monitor
Vizir of the Menagerie
Watchers of the Dead*
Manglehorn

*Not sure about this guy just yet. He won't stop all the shennanigans but I think there's very few situations where someone looking to take advantage of graveyard interactions won't be extremely unhappy to have only 2 cards available to them.

So, If I get everything, that's 5 Mythics, 8 Rares, 6 uncommons and (for the first time in a while) 2 commons and the vast majority of all that is for 1 Zombie deck and my PW collection. Hopefully I'll have a goodly portion of that by the end of prerelease weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-18 8:23 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
zimagic wrote:
Watchers of the Dead*

*Not sure about this guy just yet. He won't stop all the shennanigans but I think there's very few situations where someone looking to take advantage of graveyard interactions won't be extremely unhappy to have only 2 cards available to them.

Yeah, I don't like them. I don't think they're bad, just that there are already better options. They do help make other cards like Relic of Progenitus/Scrabbling Claws/Merrow Bonegnawer/Curse of Oblivion/Web of Inertia/Carrion Wurm better (was anybody playing Bonegnawer or Curse?), and they can turn "fair" recursion like Underworld Cerberus into more one-sided recursion, but again other cards do a better job of that.

When an opponent casts Fated Return on their Iona or whatever, and all you have for GY-hate is Watchers, you're really going to wish it were something else like Heap Doll.


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-18 10:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Viperion wrote:
So apparently Bestow cards stop being creature cards before you cast them (which isn't how I read the bestow section at all)

MTGJudge Tumblr wrote:
Q: Can you cast a bestow creature, for it's bestow cost, (e.g. Eidolon of Hope) using Vizier of the Menagerie?

A:No.

If you’re trying to cast the bestow card from the top of your library, then once you choose to pay the Bestow cost, the bestow card ceases to be a creature card and thus can’t be legally cast from your library as Vizier of the Menagerie’s second ability no longer applies to it.

If you’re casting the bestow card from your hand, it won’t be a creature spell by the time you get to pay its costs and thus Vizier of the Menagerie’s third ability won’t apply to paying for the spell.

I had to go back and take a look at the Bestow rules again, and while I didn't initially agree with the above ruling I do now. Mainly due to this part:

Quote:
702.102c The check for whether a spell can legally be cast happens after its controller has chosen whether to pay its bestow cost; see rule 601.2e.

So you choose to pay the bestow cost, which makes it an enchant aura rather than an enchantment creature, and then you check to see if the card is a creature in the context of Vizier of the Menagerie's ability (and it isn't now). Maybe this is a more recent change, I don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-19 12:58 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
intreped wrote:
zimagic wrote:
Watchers of the Dead*

*Not sure about this guy just yet. He won't stop all the shennanigans but I think there's very few situations where someone looking to take advantage of graveyard interactions won't be extremely unhappy to have only 2 cards available to them.

Yeah, I don't like them. I don't think they're bad, just that there are already better options. They do help make other cards like Relic of Progenitus/Scrabbling Claws/Merrow Bonegnawer/Curse of Oblivion/Web of Inertia/Carrion Wurm better (was anybody playing Bonegnawer or Curse?), and they can turn "fair" recursion like Underworld Cerberus into more one-sided recursion, but again other cards do a better job of that.

When an opponent casts Fated Return on their Iona or whatever, and all you have for GY-hate is Watchers, you're really going to wish it were something else like Heap Doll.


Yeah, but you can also make the arguament that, when your opponent (or you) hits with something like Living Death, you'd wish that Heap Doll was something more akin to Watchers of the Dead.

I don't think it should ever be the only answer you run, just that it's an interesting answer. It also makes something like a late game Relic of P. more interesting because you can nuke almost everything and drop a relic to exile one of two instead of a random land or being forced to blow the Relic's second ability at an inopportune time for your own graveyard.

What I like about it is:
It's an artifact creature so attacking / blocking, filling a curve, helping to turn on metalcraft are all little advantages. You can't do this with Relic or Claws. It's colourless so it goes in every deck. It's Sun Titan-able so you can run it out and let it die knowing that it's very easy to get back into play both for type and cost reasons.
It's a non-nuclear option. You don't hit yourself like a Rest in Peace or Relic would. You don't target a single player, all opponents get hit so no-one feels left out and everyone gets to keep their 2 best cards. It also self-exiles so it's a one-shot, not an every turn thing (shennanigans aside) It's an annoying but acceptable level of political graveyard hate.
No-mana activation. Occasionally important.

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Atraxa Superfriends
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Norin Goblins
Marath Legends
Sidisi MBC


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 Post subject: Re: Amonkhet Spoilers --- How many ways can we bend the Layout?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-20 2:23 pm 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I mostly want the Invocations and Bontu, which I'll be playing by making clicking sounds with my mouth. ANd yes, I know it's not the same spelling/pronunciation. :p

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