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 Post subject: Disruption in EDH decks
AgePosted: 2008-Mar-07 11:50 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Recent discussion of "broken" or unfair cards in EDH has made me realize that it's time for an actual thread here on the nature of disruption in EDH.

Obliterate, Time Stretch, Tooth and Nail, Eye of the Storm.... All of these cards fall into the same catagory. They're combo pieces and yes, it's possible to combo out in EDH. Harder than in 462 magic, but still not really difficult per se. If you don't like losing to combos, you must be a responsible deckbuilder and play reasonable amounts of decent disruption. Stop skimping and hoping that other people will be nice and not kill you... or that one of the other players will save you.

People are slowly learning the importance of having at least 2-3 good graveyard hate cards in every EDH deck... (maybe 1-2 if your meta is somehow light on recursion), but spell disuption is key too. If you don't play any permission, discard or library disruption then don't whine when your opponent takes advantage of your lack of preparation. Even white and green have some good disruption if you use artifacts or look closely.

Moreover, scale your disruption appropriately to the format. Thoughtsieze and Duress are great in 462 competetive magic because the key turns involve spells costing 3-4 mana and one opponent. In EDH they're kinda weak... but there's a whole world of cards which get a lot better in a format which has:

* 6-7 mana win conditions
* Multiple opponents
* more time

My personal favourite is Jester's Cap... it's not exciting but I play one in every EDH deck that I can. I have NEVER felt that it was a dead card and I'm rarely unhappy to draw it (Ok, there was one time where I capped myself for three lands to help improve my chances of topdecking an out... but that's still not TOO bad in an otherwise horrible situation).

Other goodies:

* Nightmare Void -- My flatmate says I have an unhealthy affection for this card but the first salvo is usally put to good use and thereafter it's the perfect dredge card... you only draw it when you need it.

* Cabal Conditioning -- 7 mana is downright reasonable for a spell which, at the very least, usually hits just the badguys for at least 3. Extra points because it can hit non-opponents too in a pinch (See: Pentagram format).

* Draining Whelk -- Another personal fav that I've been promoting since it came out. Sure, there's lots of options for permission out there but if your personal play style disagrees with counters in general the flavour on this bad girl will usually let you play it safe, guilt free :) It's also a very political counterspell... if you're feeling vindictive you hit the person who was threatening you in the first place... if you're feeling diplomatic you hit someone else and spread the love around.

* Voidmage Husher -- This one someone else pointed out to me. It's remarkable how often you can trip someone up with this if you're paying attention. Very versatile, well costed.

* Spellburst -- Obvious, but needs to be said. It's a splashable hard counter. True, most EDH threats are expensive, but they're still usually in the 5-8 mana range... and most EDH games you'll have 11 mana with which to counter that Tooth and Nail and buy it back to boot.

Options for "the other colours":

* Ghostway -- Fact is, this card sucks pretty bad in most magic formats... certainly far more than people give it credit for. In EDH though, board wipers are far more common and the cost of restablishing your board is far higher, making this a worthy play. The Highlander nature of hte format makes it even better... they'll never see it comin (and keeping 3 mana up won't rouse anyone's suspicions either). If someone in your meta is abusing Haups like I do, follow The Way... the look on their face will be priceless.

* Imperial Mask, Illumination -- I mention these not because they're great, but because they're white. Masks are surprisingly good at making people "play fair" and at least kill you by attacking. Illumination is a lot better in EDH than many people realize: Disks, Deeds, Eyes of the storm, Isochron Scepters, Karmic Justice, Sylvan Grove, Karn, Myr Matrix, Darksteel forge... the percentage of really power cards in EDH which are enchantments or artifacts is very high.

* Nullstone Gargoyle, Voidstone Gargoyle, Muse Vessel -- The former two are temporary solutions only, but if your GW Thadlid beats deck is getting manhandled by Teferi et al, they'll buy you some time. Disrupting Scepter effects aren't great as disruption goes; they're usually not specific enough. The Vessel's alternate utility as card advantage makes it worth considering though... unfortunately you still can't generate colours your general doesn't know, even if you steal their lands.

* Possesed portal, Armageddon (et al), Zur's Wierding -- One of the best ways for a non-combo deck to beat a combo deck (or deck with combos in it) is to Just Win Now. Portal is probably the best "I'm winning, so game's over" cards I've ever found... espcially if, perhaps you've got some token generation going on? I heard Green and White are good at that. Wait for someone (you?) to wipe out all the threats on the board then drop possessed portal with Mesa or Sprout swarm available. How rude :)

And really, that's what it's all about. It's fine to be a "good guy", but if you aren't willing to protect yourself with real defenses, appropriate to the weapons your opponents are wielding... then you've got no grounds to complain about those weapons when you lose.

And now I'll open up the floor for suggestions of other good disruption cards in EDH :)

G

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Last edited by Genomancer on 2008-Mar-07 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Mar-07 12:27 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
I don't care what anyone says, but Force of Will is still good in this format. Sometimes a player waits for that "coast's clear" moment to combo out. Then, suprise! it isn't. Force of Will saves the entire table from dying.

I like proactive hosers as disruption, like Damping Matrix, Humility, Suppression Field, Grand Arbiter Augustin, Kismet, unless you are talking abou hand and stack control, and then you're looking at black, blue and red. In blue, you already mentioned the superb Whelk. I like Spelljack, too. In Red Wild Riccochet is just insane. Reroute, Stifle, Azourious Gildmage, Interdict, Squelch, Trickbind and Voidmage Husher add up for some surprises. In black you have Unnerve(then again, they pick) - for targeted, I like Hymn to Tourach or Mind Twist. With Bottomless Pit or Necrogen Mists in play, combos become much more difficult to execute.

Edit: I forgot to mention Uba Mask. Jeez. Now or never, bub. No card draw for you. And Aura of Silence can keep things in check before and after they hit the table.

Argh! I forgot to mention Seer's Vision, too! talk about great Duress type effects! I'm getting old, or the cancer's taking over again.

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Last edited by Philatio on 2008-Mar-07 7:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Mar-07 1:13 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Oh, forgot about null broach. Dead players don't have a hand anyway :)

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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-07 7:11 pm 

Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Otaria
Abeyance mid-combo will wreck most people. And it cantrips!


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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-07 9:13 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
I have NEVER been disappointed to see Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast in my hand.
They are hands down the cheapest easiest answer to many "combo piece" cards.
I run BOTH in Hidetsugu, and have countered MANY counterspells/bounce spells with them, and of course I have held them awaiting a Time Stretch.

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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-10 2:31 am 
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Joined: 2007-Aug-25 2:26 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Rennes, Fr
I like to play Bond/trickbind/stiffle/interdict in a few decks.

I'm sick of losing to mindslaver. And in my Riss deck (something like 15 enchantments), bond is my lone solution versus deed/stone/disk.

Note that you can play 2 interdicts thanks to Kamigawa (squelch).

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Last edited by Token on 2008-Mar-11 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2008-Mar-10 4:34 am 

Joined: 2008-Feb-09 7:19 am
Age: Wyvern
Aside from the obvious ones a few things I like to run are:

Colour hate: Light of Day, Magistrates Veto
Netherborne Phalanx and Chains of Mephistopheles are 2 metagamed cards that go in a lot of my decks.
Overwhelming Forces is awesome.

If I was enough of a dick to play it, Back to Basics would be ridiculously good.

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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-10 12:59 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Zeddicus wrote:
Light of Day, Magistrates Veto, Netherborne Phalanx


Without regard to whether those cards are good or not, they aren't really disruption. Unless your opponent's plan is "Attack with Black guys" or "Block lots", the enchantments do nothing to interfere with your opponent's way of winning the game. Netherborne Phalanx can be an exceptional metagame card, but its still reactionary. Better to stop them BEFORE they generate many tokens... See Night of Soul's Betrayal or Engineered Plague for an example of token disruption :)

Chains on the other hand can be excellent disruption if your opponent's plan consists of amassing extra card advantage via draw spells.

As for Back to Basics... it's only good if your opponent is being a dink and packing his deck full of extra $ by playing all the best rare nonbasic lands to punish you with his wallet. In which case, playing B2B isn't really that obnoxious at all, is it? :)

G

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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-12 5:39 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-08 12:01 am
Age: Drake
It can be absolutely amazing at how disrupting quicksilver fountain can be if you can get it out on turn 2 or 3. Once all your opponent's lands are islands simply bounce it to your hand. Totally wrecks multicolor decks!


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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-13 7:06 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
How can you discuss DISRUPTION without including AMNESIA!!!!!?!?!?!?!

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/ma ... mnesia.jpg

That's a shame.

OH my gosh you forgot MINDSLAVER too.

What, does edh disruption have to suck? ^^ quicksilver fountain is awful (like a target on your head)

Oh wait are you not including cataclysm and armageddon and stasis too? Maybe you just define disruption as the "bad" disruption cards while you think "good disruption" is bomb cards. I disagree if that's the case.

And yes, Phil, Force of Will being printed was a defining moment in the history of magic, the card and where it fits in the game is irreplacable and it is the best reactive answer . . . plus in EDH you hardcast it a bunch hahahahahahaha.


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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-13 7:23 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
FoW will ALWAYS be big in every format it's legal in.
Hell just last night ...

My friend Joe passes his turn.
John is next, who has a Heartbeat of Spring in play.
End of Joe's turn, I sacrifice my Skullclamped Ronom Unicorn drawing 3 cards (someone had Fecundity) and targeting Heartbeat.
In response JOE floats 11 mana and Quicken/Time Stretch OMG
Well I drew a FoW in those three cards to stop him.
As it came around to me, I had enough mana to tutor and win in a huge swoop, where I would have lost beforehand.

:twisted:

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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-13 9:36 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-08 12:01 am
Age: Drake
Well, most of the other stuff you mentioned is just auto include to me.

In my edh metagame we blow up the world as much as possible.

I also use slavers in my decks with high mana curves.


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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-14 5:38 am 

Joined: 2008-Mar-10 1:59 am
Age: Drake
I dpn't know what excactly is meant by disruption, but having an opponent discard 4 cards at random will render him chanceless pretty much.

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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-14 10:24 am 
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Joined: 2008-Jan-18 10:03 am
Age: Drake
Location: Where the streets have no wraith
JaJ wrote:
I dpn't know what excactly is meant by disruption, but having an opponent discard 4 cards at random will render him chanceless pretty much.


Word. Radboud's Mind Twist was indeed fatal.

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AgePosted: 2008-Mar-14 10:36 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
In our EDH, if your deck has green in it, you play Rites of Flourishing/Heartbeat. EVERY DECK DOES
If you play red, you play Mana Flare, EVERY DECK DOES.

Whoever wins, USUALLY wins in a huge turn of ridiculousness, normally involving Time Stretch.
So, we as a group definitely value our disruption spells. 8)

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