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 Post subject: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 8:41 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
I'd like to consider a variation where everyone is playing a precon (or at least a precon list) with some limited allowable tweaking, probably 5-10 cards. Is this is a viable variant or might it get degenerate?

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 8:42 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-22 8:08 am
Age: Drake
I think if you allowed small changes like working on the landbase, or Only allowing cards that cost less than 5 dollars to be added or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 11:31 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
what about allowing the edits to only be non-rares, or just commons. much harder to break that format

or, even better, allow the equivalent of a booster to be added: 1 rare or mythic, 3 uncommons and 11 commons

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 11:36 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Shoe wrote:
what about allowing the edits to only be non-rares, or just commons. much harder to break that format

or, even better, allow the equivalent of a booster to be added: 1 rare or mythic, 3 uncommons and 11 commons

Great idea.
I'd second this. Allowing the equivalent of 1-3 boosters worth of cards to be changed would make them more varied while keeping the power 'contained'.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 12:02 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
What would the purpose of this variant be? The most likely intent would be to create a level playing field with new players who are doing something like this anyways. But if a new player is playing with a precon +5 cards, I think it would limit their growth as a player to restrict them from further changes.

I think this is a reasonable sort of deck to have - my Zedruu deck is designed to maintain the spirit and power level of the pre-con so I can play it against weaker decks. But I'm not sure it works as a variant with rules and limits.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 12:08 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Is there a general consensus that the precons are balanced relative to each other? The Mimeoplasm is certainly crazy busted in the wild, but I haven't played enough against the unmodified precons to know how he stacks up in that environment.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 12:24 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think that this is a great idea, and would work pretty well as an alternative event format. It seems like a good compromise between the degeneracy of EDH unchained and the monotony of playing with the unmodified precons. I also like the elegance of Shoe's idea of adding a "booster".

crokaycete wrote:
Is there a general consensus that the precons are balanced relative to each other? The Mimeoplasm is certainly crazy busted in the wild, but I haven't played enough against the unmodified precons to know how he stacks up in that environment.

They're not completely balanced, and I'm sure that the ranking would become pretty clear if you played with them enough, but they're close enough that none of them are unarguably the best. I played all of them unmodified with my roommates a bunch of times, and the games were always fair.


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-28 1:05 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
How about the rarity of what you bring in has to match what you take out?

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 1:57 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Sheldon wrote:
I'd like to consider a variation where everyone is playing a precon (or at least a precon list) with some limited allowable tweaking, probably 5-10 cards. Is this is a viable variant or might it get degenerate?


I think it's a great idea, especially considering that I have five precons that I have no idea what to do with. Unfortunately I think that most tweaks would include the obvious cards like Primeval Titan.

Sheldon wrote:
How about the rarity of what you bring in has to match what you take out?


That's a nice idea, but I think that when you start tweaking a deck it's not that hard to take out one of the alternate commanders. I don't think any of the precons really gets better with the elder dragons. So, obvious slot for Primeval Titan is obvious. Still, it's not a bad idea. Constricting deck construction with such rules breeds creativity. Deck checks might take a lot of time though.

An expansion on this idea: the swapped card can only be swapped with cards from the same set.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 5:03 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Deck checks? Commander should NEVER be run at Comp REL. If you were going to enforce it somehow, you would just have each player pull out the 10 (or whatever) cards they swapped and then check that all the cards in the other pile had commander sets symbols on them.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 6:40 am 
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Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
You'd better be trusting your opponents not to "accidentally" run the wrong cards. Scavenging Ooze in your Mimeoplasm deck? Sad robot in your Kaalia deck? Both have a commander symbol... Unless you start with a sealed precon and 10 cards it's going to be very hard to keep track of proper deck construction.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 6:55 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It would take a long time to deck check any commander list, and if the event is less than competitive you're trusting the players a lot anyway. How easy would it be to play five copies of Mana Leak or Rootbound Crag at FNM, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 7:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As a judge, I would never create an event where I had to check a 100 card singleton deck because:

a) It would take forever for people to write deck lists
b) It would take forever for me to check the deck lists
c) With ~80 unique cards, the odds that either I or the player would make an error are very high.

Plus, Commander is not a sanctioned format. It is casual only. Who has ever counted an opponent's deck to make sure they start with 99 cards and not 98 or 100? Nobody. By the same token, when you ask people to pull out the 10 cards they swapped, you have to trust that that's all they did, and a cursory double check is all anyone could possibly expect.

Plus, if someone runs a swapped card, they have to trust that no opponents (who are ALL running precons, and potentially the same ones) will know that it was illegally swapped.

This seems to me like an imagined problem instead of a real one.

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Feb-29 9:31 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I was playing WRB against my friends RUG and i get stomped if i don't have a stupid good hand

so yes, i'd like this

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 Post subject: Re: Tweaked Precons
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-02 1:42 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-07 11:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I would not call the precons even. The RWU one has way too many directions that it is trying to run. Maybe a 5 card swap could fix this, but then the other decks that already run fairly well get powered up even more as well.

As an experiment I'll try changing 5 cards:
Out
Flusterstorm is my first card out. This card was only printed for legacy anyway...
Breath of Darigaaz is next, very narrow card that doesnt do much for this deck I think
Martyr's Bond - Last thing I want is for my opponent to sac the cards I donate to him...
Rapacious one - Really confused about his role in this deck...
Lash out - Doesnt do much for the deck
There are still a lot of cards that we could find better but I feel these are the worst offenders.

In:
Land Tax- This deck needs lands and can always make sure that the Tax triggers.
Psychosis Crawler- a basic finisher card
Capsize - Used to get donated cards back
Venser's Journal - There may be better options, but the format should be slow enough to allow this to work.
Chamber of Manipulation - borrowing things and donating them to other opponents is silly, I want to do it more.

If any more are switched out this becomes too close to what we have now.

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