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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 12:41 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kelen wrote:
@Epsilon
Quote:
So please answer the following question honestly: Do you LIKE games, that foces you to exile mikaeus, redirect a winning time stretch and exile three cards of a players library to prevent them from tutor-combo-winning or playing zur-enchantmentracer-disruption as counter meta deck? I don't. And I don't think, this should be the point in this format.


Absolutely, I don't know if you played and War Gaming like Warhammer or anything like that but Commander is IMHO very similar. You are building an army to take into battle and you will face lots of different types of enemy armies, so I try to have a strategy to fight in any situation and not have a big weakness to a certain type of play/card.

For the record redirecting a Time Stretch is epic.

I try to have about 40% reinforcing my main strategy and 60% contingency plans. My deck is here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/pope-zedruu-the-xvi/

It is really about drawing cards and gaining life off of gifting enchantments and other cards that the enemy doesn't get anything out of. However, while gifting and flickering Delusions of Grandeur is a nice thing and all I probably win mos the games from beating their faces in with their own creatures, a Serra Ascendant, Baneslayer Angel, Akroma, or something like that.

Since Commander/EDH is such a Commander-centric format you just need to look at other commanders and think what couple cards you can throw in that stop a majority of those commanders. It's like ensuring your troops have gas-masks just in case your enemies uses gas, sometimes it'll be useless sometimes it'll save your butt.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 12:43 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Therein lies the problem though. It's not your fault that there are a lot of combo players in the area and I did not say that it was but you CAN change it and help warp your meta into what you want it to be by playing cards that throw a wrench in the dominant, unfun strategies.

You being unwilling to put forth the effort does not mean the whole system is broken and band aid fixes are necessary. This is a problem with your meta and it's a problem that can very easily be fixed by adapting. A legacy deck built 15 years ago is not going to be competitive with the legacy decks of today. It doesn't matter what format you play, you have to adapt to what is available and played in your area or the ones playing the "winning strategy" of your area are going to continue winning every game.

I do like games where I have to INTERACT to win. That is the point of a social format. You are blatantly refusing to interact with your meta and expecting the RC to fix it for you.

Come play commander, it's a fun format meant for big splashy plays with multiple opponents, except you can only attack one person and if you actually kill them, they can make it so you're screwed the rest of the game. If your deck, built in a vacuum, isn't successful you can just ask the RC to change the format because everyone else is playing it wrong. That sounds like a wonderful format that will bring in tons of new players.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 12:59 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
Quote:
For the record redirecting a Time Stretch is epic.

Sure it is. But if you have to do this every second game or get beaten, is this fun then?

Also, your deck is nice, but I played more disruption, than you and it helped nothing. Your deck would be shred apart in my meta. I really envy your meta, where you can play this and win sometimes.

@Epsilon
"Come play commander, a game, that is centered around playing cool things and having a good time with friends, where the social and card interactions at the table do matter more, than winning (or hindering somebody to win). A game, where getlemen play with each other, you can try out new things and won't face and loose to the same shitty combo again and again in every store you play."

Also, I think you get the whole "social interaction" thing wrong. See, a tournament format like legacy does works your way. There are some dominant decks, you have to interact with them in your deckbuilding, counter them and abuse other cards to WIN. Commander is by definition NO turnament format. Interaction in Commander should mean, that you play a relaxed game with aspects of diplomacy ("I will counter his dissipate, if you don't attack me next turn") and usefull cards you like, not Cards you 'have to pick, cause it is the meta, bro.' Also, Commander should be about having fun while doing so, while everybody else at the table has fun, too.

Also, Sir, you are plain wrong. I don't expect the RC to do anything. I told about my observations and how things could possibly be changed for the better. Ideas are no expectations or demands. Also the RC won't do anything, cause of such players like yourself, who believe, that 'this is the game and has to be that way' and prefer to play this whole thing out in a narrowminded legacy-counter-deck-meta way.

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Maelstrom Wanderer - Cascading for timmy.
Karador - Greens Finest
Pheldagrif - Crazy Board Police


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 6:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... ily/sf/130

Good article, you should probably read to understand my 'problem' on a
deeper level.

_________________
Maelstrom Wanderer - Cascading for timmy.
Karador - Greens Finest
Pheldagrif - Crazy Board Police


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 6:42 am 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
kelen wrote:
@Epsilon
Quote:
Combo can be powerful but it is by no means a 70% win chance.

This was no global chance, this is only in my meta.

And I don't think this game should all be about 'building decks to wreck combo strategies' to 'counter the meta'. I am not here for an advice on that (but thx anyway). I thought of this as a social game, like it is said in the gentlemen's fluff here on this site. Having fun while have a nice chat and a beer. If I read your post (which I probably should not have done, cause it makes me sad) it sounds like this is all our own fault, cause we are not playing 'properly'. I don't agree, Sir. The mess in our meta I discribed is not my fault, cause I don't want to adapt to or counter it. It is the whole meta in my area, that is wrong, cause it misses the point of edh.

So please answer the following question honestly: Do you LIKE games, that foces you to exile mikaeus, redirect a winning time stretch and exile three cards of a players library to prevent them from tutor-combo-winning or playing zur-enchantmentracer-disruption as counter meta deck? I don't. And I don't think, this should be the point in this format.

And may I add: I don't care, if "non-social douchebag Spikes" would be driven away from this format. Indeed, I would love to see that. They can go away and play legacy, modern, standard or vintage and have fun. And I swear, that for every such douchebag goin' there will be four happy new players joining the community. Cause it would be much more friendly ...


Sounds like you might like the Godzilla format, it's 75 cards, and you can play 4-of most cards, but most of your deck HAS to be composed of Big Fat Creatures. Also, the way you win isnt just through winning games, but achievements are built in to the format, as well as the fatter creatures you have the more points you gain toward winning. Check it out!

-Shoe


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 7:35 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kelen wrote:
Quote:
Your deck would be shred apart in my meta.


My Meta is like that because I forced it to be that way... if you go back to my original post I forced everyone to drop down to the realms of mortality. I used to have a deck that would combo on turns 3-5 every game (save a very rare few) and people got really freaking tired of it, so we all dropped the stupid infinite combos. But believe me if the group of players I play with started to get stupid again I would go back and rebuild that deck and ruin everyone's day.

I would suggest building the most heinous combo deck ever and then when people get tired of the turn 4 multiplayer games then tell them that everyone should put their infinite decks away.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 10:27 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Everyone here is telling you the same thing... You can change your meta by changing your own decks to INTERACT with your opponents.

Every deck ever built is building up to a critical mass. Some are faster than others, some are more resilient and redundant than others. If you want your deck to hit critical mass first, you have to play cards that distract and delay everyone else. Those cards are meta specific. Every card in the game has an answer though.

If you are not metagaming, you should not be upset when you lose. You know what is coming. Choosing not to play around it is not some honorable choice, it's just foolish. As the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

By all means, speak with the players in your meta. "Hey guys, two card combos are boring and no one enjoys watching you decksturbate. At least mix it up a bit and require 4+ cards to combo." If they aren't willing to change, you aren't going to convince them. It's a LGS, not a league or kitchen table so you do not have predetermined groups. If you're not willing to say "I'm sorry, your deck is too competetive and we do not like combo so you are not invited to this game" then you don't have many other options. You can metagame to force them to adapt and find a new strategy, find a new location to play at that shares your ideals or you can stop playing. (sometimes you just need a break)

House ruling is heavily encouraged. Self-policing is also heavily encouraged. If people choose not to police themselves though, you have to metagame to stop them. Being a social format does not remove the necessity for interactivity. On the contrary, it adds to the ways you can interact. "Anyone have an answer to that?" "Yeah, don't cast any creatures on your turn, I'm going to do a board wipe to get rid of Player A's combo piece on my turn." You will piss off Player A but the other players that had the warning will thank you and you'll be down a notch on the kill priority. If your meta does not work this way; seriously, find a new meta. Douchebags are douchebags and you aren't going to have fun playing with people like that even if you enforced all the terribly restrictive rules you can think of.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 11:46 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If you have a problem with combo decks, run Stranglehold, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, or whatever helps you defeat them. Adding 3 or 4 cards to a deck to deal with meta problems is by no means a mistake, nor is it ruining your deck, nor is it being a dick. For example, in my meta, most of the decks are semi Voltron or Godzilla-like. As a result, one of the players (who happens to be Master Baiter) runs a lot more targetted removal then he probably should elsewhere. It doesn't completely change his deck and it certainly doesn't make him a dick. It proves that he's adaptable to the meta.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 6:49 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
Last Words
I expected such posts, guys.

But you dont get it. I tried and played all those fancy super counter cards. Thats not the point. One deck alone cannot stop three or more other dechs from abusing the format. And I cannot even condemn them for doing so. See, playing such nasty shit as contamination, mike and trike or unlimited turns is the logic evolvment of this eternal format, cause there are no rules against it and legacy-player-spikes are entering the format in masses since wotc adopted it. This evolution from "casual-fun-edh" to "legacy-multiplayer-douchebaggery" cannot be prevented by having some vague fluff about gentlemen's play. This can only be prevented by having clear rules, that disencourage douchebaggery style of play. And yes, if you hit the table with a contamination, you are killing the spirit of this format. But well, people dont care, cause people are used to competitive environments, where it is ok, to spoil everybodys fun (indeed, this is not exactly true, cause abusing cards and winning hard is another sort of fun, totally fine there. I play legacy and I don't have any problem with that.).

But, again and with a hint on the edh-philosophy presented on this site, this is no format, where you should do everything to win. And combo or manalocks, Sirs, are the best examples of "I do everything for the cheap win and spoil everybody elses fun, cause I like it to play alone. AND I don't care if you have fun, as long as I have fun." So if all of this is no problem in your enviroment, be happy. But for gods sake stop trying to silence me by telling me "you are tha problem noob, cause you dont play properly competitive disruptive". I tried everything in my area to stop the douchebaggery and failed. And the Idea of "Break the spikes with anti-spike cards, before they break you" is, pardon, spike-logic. So, again, this is
- NO thread how to fix MY meta
- This is NO thread to beg the RC to change rules for MY profit (@Epsilon: what a lousy and mean accusation, Sir!). I am only posting some unfinished ideas here, cause I was ASKED by the RC to do so (you can read it on page 1).
And even more ideas are needed, because the problem is deeper, than you think. Think outside your gruop. Think outside your meta. This is nothing, that can be fixed with a decklist. This is about the format, its philosophy and the future of edh.

I myself prefer to quit Commander for now, maybe until there are some rules, that protect edh/commander in its uniqueness, aka. as a casual fun format (even, when I don't think, that this will be done). The spirit of edh is in high danger and many players (all over my and several other countries) I talked to lately are experiencing the same pro-competitive-douchebaggery-power-shift in the last year - commander tournaments being the most silly and abusive evidence of it. The whole 'be nice' fluff is neat, but it wont work in the long run. Spikes attract more spikes and scare timmys away. They warp this format THEIR way, by ignoring the social contract. Spikes do only understand rules. And without them, this Format is drifting apart. This is the trend. Let's face it.

_________________
Maelstrom Wanderer - Cascading for timmy.
Karador - Greens Finest
Pheldagrif - Crazy Board Police


Last edited by kelen on 2012-Sep-23 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 12:54 am 

Joined: 2012-Sep-21 6:29 am
Age: Wyvern
Hey Kelen,

First off, great post!

I feel your pain. The format is one that can be broken easily. I personally play as a Johnny Combotastic player. I love interaction between spells that are often considered to be inbalanced. That said.. In our playgroup we have some individuals that just dump dollar after dollar into decks and play infinite combo's.

Infinite combo's.. I think this is the most annoying way to win a game of Commander. It lacks interactivity (which is the basis for EDH) and it is just a Karn Ultimate... Boring as hell! I don't like infinite combo's as you cannot really counter it unless you play really specific cards that draw away from the format... I am playing cards in my deck against archtypes.. Why play cards just to piss off the Niv-Curiosity tosser?

In our group we have agreed, though with some whining (with cheese), that infinite combo's are not allowed. Infinite combo's that result in the inevitable death of all players. Even if you "choose" to not ping with Trisk+UnholyMike. You can kill... Stop trying to be political! This is a fine line, mainly because of the fact that you can use an infinite mana combo to push your hand out on the table. If this is the case the combo will be considered to be finite.. as in you can't pump more cards than in your hand. However if you use it to pump a Fireball in your face or abuse card draw to just dump your library it is infinite again.. So what do we do? Ban infinites. The actual rule is that you may use combo pieces in one deck (Sanguine Bond with Exquisite Blood) however if you put both on the table to produce an infinite combo.. You may be punched in the ballbag! :)

What are the actual solutions? Obviously you came to the right format, but I don't think you should go through the official rules. You have three groups in EDH. A purely casual player (You, Kelen), A casual/competitive player and, sadly, Dipsh*ts. You have seemed to wurmed yourself into a pack of dipsh*ts and this is causing you to dislike the format. The gap between a casual player and competitive player is that a competitive player will just be able to play far more ridiculous combo's where casual players just want to have fun.

What I suggest is that you take on the primary element of the rules on these forums: Adjust to your own needs. We ban infinites (This will give you some breathing room). You can also consider banning cards that cause degeneracy in your playgroup, but this will probably cause more annoying discussions on how Genesis wave is not completely ridiculous. In my local store they have banned extra turns cause it causes boring game states.

Can you only imagine the minefield that the RC has to run through?


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 1:08 am 

Joined: 2009-May-05 9:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Acworth, GA
Kelen, what your saying is absolutely true, and it is irony most of those that have responded here are the spikes you speak of, although they may be a little tame. As soon as I hear a player say statements like, "My deck doesn't work without this card" or, "You just need more answers," I know I am dealing with someone who does not get the format. My playgroup went through the arms race, imploded, and then now is slowly rebuilding without the people too stubborn to change.

I am not saying don't run removal, or counters, or whatever, but this format is about being able to build a deck that is FUN, play a FUN game, and have a good time with those other people while you are all having FUN. If your fun keeps others from having fun, you are mucking up the format. If your fun is tied into winning, you are mucking up the format.

Most of my decks are tied to a theme, and that makes them more fun to play, and more fun to actually build. Grave Titan has no place in my zombie deck, why, he is not a zombie himself. Constraint on deck building is a large part of this format, the commanders themselves define a constraint, but then you SHOULD be adding more yourself. Build a theme, and no, "good stuff" is not a theme. Build around something that is interesting, not the same old crap from tourneys of years past.

Sure, 80% of the people that play commander don't get it, and they never will, you can not teach or train someone to care about other people or become casual through your card choices. It is sad, but Kelen, I support you leaving the format, because you actually get it, and you will get nothing but frustration unless you find a group that gets it too. Sheldon and the RC do a great job, but they stay very PC, and for good reason. They want the format to grow, and to grow, it will have to include those very players that muck up the format. That is OK, though, because those same people will naturally play each other and not see a problem, and the casual guys will just go back into the wood work and enjoy their kitchen table game. Sheldon has something unique in Armada Games, and he knows it. I have played Commander there, and many other shops. Armada is unique, and the only shop I would ever play commander in again, even though they are more cut throat than my normal group. The reason, is that most of the players there at least TRY to get the format, and that is likely due to Sheldon's strong influence.

Most real casual players will never play in a shop, they know better. Most real casual players will not post on this forum, they have no reason too. I applaud you, Kelen, for taking the time to brave the feedback that was due to come from people that don't get it, and hide behind their egos thinking they do. Unfortunately, that is not a Commander problem, or even a Magic problem. That is what is wrong with most kids too old to really be kids, but to young to get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 9:45 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Kelen,

How do the other players feel about the state of the meta? Do they genuinely enjoy playing combo or do they just do it because it's their only shot at winning?

Maybe you should bring up this problem with your playgroup. Talk about what kind of game you want and what can be done to make that happen. If others feel as you, you could make your own playgroup and let the combo players play in their group. I'm sure such a group would be more popular, especially to beginners and players with wacky decks.

_________________
My Commander decks:
Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 9:48 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Buthrakaur wrote:
My playgroup went through the arms race, imploded, and then now is slowly rebuilding without the people too stubborn to change.


Yup, same with me... it happens. It looks like it is going to start going again because our group started playing at the local game store and infinite combos are starting up again. It constantly happens but it comes in phases.

I will not say that Commander doesn't work, I would say that it is best with friends, okay with acquaintances and crappy with dickwads.


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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 12:22 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
I will not say that Commander doesn't work, I would say that it is best with friends, okay with acquaintances and crappy with dickwads.
That is the most true statement I've ever seen on these boards. Mind if I use it as my new sig?

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 Post subject: Re: Commander does not work
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 2:14 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Go for it


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