I just find with Paleoloth that he takes too much time investment to get going. I don't deny that his ability is useful; I just find myself spending too much time recurring things when my deck is filled with good bombs that I can drop into play to a similar or greater effect on the table. He'll keep his spot for now but if they end up printing a better recursion engine on a fatty (like a genesis effect that happens while he's in play) I'll replace the loth.

@Jeyal: I can't see ever cutting the tusker. I know that crystal ball is a nice recurring source of deck manipulation but the card advantage on a fatty is just too nice to pass up. The other change seems perfectly fine to me; the Titan is more reliable and a better fatty.

Razia is still in mine, but she has other uses than just attacking. I like the ball, but wouldn't cut tusker over it. I <3 my mana. Not sure what you want the suggest with the comment that Mayael's an elf?

Maybe you shouldn't spend so much time on the loth, just get back the one important thing and otherwise just get something when it triggers accidentally.

The trouble is that it doesn't trigger itself. You need to cast Paleoloth and then play a second fatty. Paleoloth does nothing on its own and is close to useless unless you cast it before you cast everything else. That makes it pretty awkward. Not only is it situational, but it significantly disrupts your tempo, which is a fairly big deal in multiplayer games. Okay, good with Kiki-Jiki or whatever, but so are most fatties. I cut Paleoloth from my build when Rise came out.

I find myself playing Paleoloth only if I have a Sneak Attack handy. It's incredible in concert, but, I'll admit, pretty underwhelming without.

Perhaps that's where I'll fit in Crystal Ball...

I play more mass removal than most of you guys. Generally games I'm in come down to resource advantage when mass removal spell after mass removal spell resolves. Yes the loth will generally spend a considerable amount of time waiting in my hand, but so will other fatties. At some point there will be some mass removal and I will come back with loth and some other fatty, returning the worst I can find from my yard. Verry worst case I will have a 5/5 and a 5/3 and more likely I will have at least 2 5/5's, and in both cases also something nifty in hand. From there on also any fatty I drop doesn't come down to overextension as I am getting one back anyway. I will be able to use any mediocre fatty to get back good ones from my yard and build up a considerable board presence at the same time. So theoretically if I can keep going for a while I will have a better board position and a better hand, while they do have to overextend to keep up or find some mass removal themselves (which will likely be due to a topdeck when I drop the loth, given how long I wait with it).

In the past I have seriously considered it for removal, but in the next few games it pretty much worked as described above, gaining me a lot of advantage in the end game where the opponents were mostly in topdeck mode. I certainly wouldn't consider it the best card in the deck, but there certainly are worse cards in the deck that should make room first in my view.

I will admit that writing this down I only just realized that it was working like this, I wasn't consiously playing it like this, so it might prove even better when I am.

@troacctid: Could you maybe describe how you see tempo as being important in multiplayer? I know it as efficient resource allocation (mostly mana wise), but in my multiplayer games there is generally more time to do things than in regular games and to me card advantage generally outweighs doing stuff a little more efficiently in the long run. I will aim for the long run in just about any multiplayer game I play and I can only really think of 1 recent example where this really failed for me, mostly because another player set himself up better for the long run. I am not really seeing the need for tempo later in multiplayer games, though I could see an argument for it in the early turns.

@pi: have you ever been in the situation where you needed to Wrath and all of your recursion was either in play or inaccessible? I hate that feeling and I find that worrying about killing a specific guy on the board, like Paleoloth, distracts me from the true goal of the game and can lead to some play error in how I react to other threats.

Tempo is actually more important in EDH than people give it credit for. When a player decides to "go for it" in the mid to late game it's up to the table to try and find answers for it. Generally I've found that my playstyle is too aggressive to hope to sit back and dig in for a constant attrition war and to actually win the game the immediate need to keep up with tempo can be quite important.

While there are certain fatties that are staples in Mayael I think Paleoloth is one of the ones that is more dependent on playstyle and you are putting yourself up for a two or more for one when if you try to use it. I know that it can be a nice bonus for playing a fatty when you have it out but I tried that and I found that when I held back instead of overextending I felt a little guilty. Genesis is another similar card that I've cut from all of my EDH decks, not just Mayael for similar reasons to Paleoloth. I found that while Genesis provides the long game advantage I would spend a turn or two setting up Genesis recursion and then have to wait another few turns to actually get some value out of it. In a format where you're expected to be constantly trading punches back and forth with the other players giving up that tempo can be a waste. Also I found that my graveyard is a dangerous place to rely on later in the game and it would often get hated out, making the time and tempo investment worthless quite often.

Genesis has been on the chopping block in my Mayael deck lately as well. I don't have the heart to cut him quite yet, but it's getting few and far between where I actually activate him any more. I don't use Paleoloth at all, as it seemed too situational and clunky to me.

@Pi - is the list on the first page current? And would it be a faux pas for me to post my own list here, or should I start a new thread and ask all of you guys very nicely to come look? I have 15 EDH decks right now, and my Mayael deck is by far my favorite lately. This thread has helped me to balance the deck and raise its power level without sacrificing the "fun" aspects of it (ie: it's not a Zur, Uril, or Sharum- style win-win-win deck).

Keep up the good work you guys!!

Nope, I believe in being able to see the evolution of a deck, hence my most recent list will always be the most recent one I posted in a reply. I haven't made an update for M11 yet, but it should be coming soon. I did order any cards that looked like they had potential. You would be very welcome to post your own list, right from the start we've been asking people to do that. We can always learn from eachother's choices.

I moved out genesis long before I even put the loth in. The mana cost of its ability is considerably harder than getting creatures back for free and I prefer cards that I can choose when I active Mayael over those that make me miss. Even if there are often better choices.

@Jukren54, I can see the point in not wanting to play cards that push you towards something that would be an incorrect choice. In the end though, shouldn't play skill prefail in such a situation?

I actually play the waiting game all the time with this deck. I have lots of removal, lots of big guys, just enough recursion. I will generally be holding many cards in hand up to the very end of the game. It is the kind of game I like.

Did you maybe see my argument on why it is not overextending? Because any fatty you play brings back another one (assuming no yard hate, which I don't face often), you can sculpt a very good hand, dropping fatties you don't mind losing and getting back those that can be a threat singlehandedly after the inevitable wrath resolves. This will set you up nicely for a long game where ultimately you will have the best starting position.

I realize we have different playstyles and it seems logical for you not to play it, but could you see it having merit for somebody who takes a more controlish approach to playing this deck?

I'm not saying that I end up making a mistake; I just hate having to make a decision and it always seems like I'm forced to Wrath away the Loth with little or no profit.


Oh, I can see the merits of the controlling approach and the surprise win out of nowhere. The thing is that my playgroup can be super aggressive and forcing them to answer a board backed up by Spearbreaker puts them on the backfoot. I find that if I wait too long I get too far behind. This is true especially with the impact that the Eldrazi have had on EDH and the trouble that this deck has in dealing with them. Our different playstyles are a product of our different EDH decks and how we use them. I have others that fulfill my need to be a deck full of answers rather than questions.

My Mayael tends to falls into the aggro side for me because a lot of my other decks are bent on contol and sometimes it's just more fun to drop the guys and smash face. The effects that this deck can pack, with enough mana, are so powerful that the fatties can just run away with the game. This put me in the position to pack more redundant copies of certain effects, such as extra attack phases, instead of worrying about recurring the same ones over again to maintain tempo. Have you ever Tooth and Nailed for E-wit and a guy? I hate, hate doing that. I actually considered cutting E-wit from my decks because I spent too much time fiddling around with him (her?), getting back mana ramp cards in the mid to late game and not throwing around the weight of the deck. FYI I'm not actually going to do it but you can see what I mean.

The other thing is that in my playgroup there is always at least one or more players with GY hate over the course of the game. I also find that every fatty I draw is one I like (we're starting to get to the point where everything is good) and the Timmy in me craves the power of beating. By overextending I meant that playing the second guy with Loth on board just to get back the first guy. I also find that I when I have Loth down I never attack with it for fear of the defensive use of removal or retaliation by the defender.

Overall I'm not saying that recursion is bad and there are some times when there isn't any tempo to keep up with and using E-wit or Paleoloth is the right play, but if I have a hand full of guys I'm going to go aggro and rarely hold back.

Actually if I consider toothing for a witness I would almost certainly grab kiki-jiki with it. I cannot remember actually having considered it though, I think I would only do that if I already had what I need on the board, but then playing tooth at all seems overkill. Maybe I'd do it with something very important in the yard, but I can't really think of anything. On the other hand, primal command gets witness over 50% of the time. I figure this is because it costs less mana and I like gaining the 14 life very much. I play no actual mana ramp cards, only land cyclers, card drawers and improvements to card selection (though rings might be considered mana ramp in many cases).

If I have a hand full of guys I tend to try to draw out their mass removal as I am obviously lacking it. I tend to play out those guys over many turns, forcing them to waste their removal and then finally, when their hands start to get depleted I might just drop a few additional fatties and start hitting hard. It is rare that I do not have some kind of backup plan or lack a multi-turn strategy.

In my group I have seen people assume I will have some kind of instant that will stop them, even when I have only 3 instants that realistically can and one needs to be played before assigning attackers. They're so used to me having some backup plan they have to play around they are almost doing it automatically, which generally gives me plenty of time to actually find it.

Anyway, maybe my group isn't tempo oriented enough to force me to play in different ways. It wouldn't surprise me, they're all playing pretty laid back (unsurprising as we're playing in a coffee shop, only 1 player besides me doesn't do drugs), sometimes have issues getting the cards for their decks that might force more immediate responses and in general are very gentlemen like and because of it don't really tend to take out the weak link or even kick people out of the game in general. I'm sure some even realize it, but feel it's more fun this way.

For consideration, I have now resolved death or glory a few times. Results so far have been rather lackluster. I always seem to have 1 creature that I really would want, which the opposition realizes and that's going to be the stack that gets removed. Which, thinking about it, seems logical with many cards in the deck being silver bullits for certain situations. The point is that I will never get that 1 creature I need, unless maybe when they can easily handle it, but then it wouldn't be what I need anyway. The thing is, it seems I'm always getting what's least advantageous to me and that feels like improvement could be made. I am tempted to try marshall's anthem in this spot.

Here's my list:

1 Mayael the Anima

Lands (40)

6 Forest
1 Mosswort Bridge
4 Mountain
4 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Raging Ravine
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Naya Panorama
1 Krosan Verge
1 Kor Haven
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Maze of Ith

Sounds like a lot of lands, but fetches, maze, Glaciers, etc. don't actually provide mana themselves, and Strip Mine and Wasteland don't always stick around to tap for 1.

Fatties (26)

1 Admonition Angel
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Blazing Archon
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Sun Titan
1 Twilight Shepherd
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Bloodfire Colossus
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Flameblast Dragon
1 Hateflayer
1 Scourge of Kher Ridges
1 Ant Queen
1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Myojin of Life's Web
1 Pelakka Wurm
1 Primeval Titan
1 Spearbreaker Behemoth
1 Verdant Force
1 Vigor
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Mycoid Shepherd
1 Vagrant Plowbeasts
1 Oversoul of Dusk

Double Akromas? Yes, their evasion is what keeps them in the deck so far. There are also some in the deck (Ant Queen, Arashi, Oversoul, Baneslayer) that are good, not great, but easy to cast. I also use Bogardan Hellkite, Hateflayer, Scourge of Kher Ridges, Flameblast Dragon, and Arashi as spot removal (as opposed to Crater Hellion et al). I'd probably add Novablast Wurm, but I don't have one yet.

Mana Fixing/ramp (6)

1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Recross the Paths
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Coalition Relic
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Recross the Paths does not end up back in my hand as often as I thought it would. That's going to become 5+ power creature #27 at some point. Primeval Titan has already made my reliance on non-fattie-mana-fixing a little easier.

Sneaking big guys out (4)

1 Defense of the Heart
1 Lurking Predators
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Quicksilver Amulet

Lurking Predators is MVP of this deck most of the time.

Card Draw/tutoring (9)

1 Academy Rector
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Abundance
1 Cream of the Crop
1 Drumhunter
1 Sylvan Library
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Mind's Eye
1 Scroll Rack

I've gone with put-it-on-top tutors because they allow me to manipulate Lurking Predators and my general's ability. I'd like to squeeze in Primal Command here somewhere. Probably for the Mind's Eye. Academy Rector is great for finding my Mirari's Wake or Lurking Predators.

Spot Removal (2)

1 Krosan Grip
1 Aura Shards

with so many large creatures in here, there's not really much room for artifact/enchant removal, so these'll have to do.

Mass Removal (3)

1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Austere Command
1 Rout

Recursion (4)

1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Reclaim

Reya's great, but doesn't stick around as long as I'd like. I saw Tawnos's Coffin in Pi's list. If I can get ahold of one, that'd go a long way to keeping her (and Kiki-Jiki) around.

Misc Utility/fun (5)

1 Wall of Reverence
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Rings of Brighthearth

That's what I've got so far. Any comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. If you see a card that you think absolutely needs to come out or go in, please let me know what your substitution would be. I'll try and add my two cents in this thread when I think I can contribute. Thanks to all of you for helping me make this one of my favorite EDH decks so far!

A quick update to the list above; just writing it all out got me thinking...

-Genesis (not pulling his weight, and 4 power just doesn't cut it.
-Recross the Paths (another card not living up to potential)

+Deathless Angel (Seems good, and helps my general live)
+Primal Command (better utility than Recross the Paths, good Eternal Witness target)

I didn't see Spinerock Knoll in your list there. Oh, and Windbrisk Raptor has been pretty good for me--giving everyone lifelink is pretty good. Particularly with Bloodfire Colossus or Scourge of Kher Ridges. Maybe instead of Sun Titan, since the ability doesn't have much synergy with the deck. Also, Mana Reflection is good.

Spinerock Knoll was overlooked; I'll have to see if I have one, good idea!

Windbrisk Raptor is a great idea, too, but I've actually gotten a good amount of mileage out of Sun Titan so far. He replaced Crucible of Worlds, and most times that's what he ends up being used as, which is fine by me. I've got to play it a bit more with the changes I've made recently to find out who goes in place of the lifelink bird. Maybe Wall of Reverence...

I prefer Mirari's Wake to Mana Reflection in here, and the Academy Rector/Enlightened Tutor help get it, so I don't need two.

edit:

-Mountain
-Akroma, Angel of Fury

+Spinerock Knoll
+Windbrisk Raptor

despite her evasion, the red Akroma just wasn't cutting it. The only time I've been really glad to see her is when Lurking Predators gets her for free. I didn't take out the Wall of Reverence because I still need to cast something before turn six. We'll see how it goes at the store this Saturday. Thanks for the help so far!

Genesis got cut before Reclaim did? Seems a bit odd to me. I know I don't run either right now but if I'm committed to the recursion aspect of Mayael I think I at least want the ability to do it over and over again.

Recross the Paths wasn't working for you either? I can see the Top is missing from the list but you have Scroll Rack and Cream of the Crop. I think you relying to much on the best case scenarios where RtP is working optimally to tell you whether or not to cut it. Generally I'm happy just to get 1-2 uses out of it. Maybe you need to reevaluate your fatty density or pick your clashing opponents better. When I use Rack or Top I can generally have it in my hand for the entire game and might be able to cast it every turn.